Talk:Esau

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[edit] Help

Need help disambiguating Judah (q.v.) in this entry.

[edit] Why the {} sign/s?

Why were one or more of these sign/s: {{NPOV}}{{expansion}}{{Cleanup}} signs placed on this page without any discussion, explanation or reasoning? (And why create a redundant category Category:Bible stories that is now up for a vote for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion#Category:Bible stories?) IZAK 07:22, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No no no, Esau deserves an entry, albeit a much better one by someone who can keep the Christian bias from blazing through.24.20.12.73 14:31, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Needs rewrite

This article is extremely POV and seems to contain a great deal of original research and the author's personal speculation. The author needs to attribute his/her contentions--they're either his/her ideas, or perhaps the current Bible study discussion topics.

Particularly objectionable are the insistence that Jacob did not trick or deceive Esau (not that it's wrong, just that it's POV), and the statement that the Edomites are "godless"--intuitively this rings false. I seriously doubt it; probably they had many gods. I'm prepared to be proven wrong, but that's exactly it--back your claims!! 24.20.12.73 14:31, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think the last two paragraphs should be axed. 24.20.12.73 14:34, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

seriously. a great deal of this article is millenarian rubbish.

[edit] "Esau" needs change.

This article is polemic, defending Jacob at all costs, rather than setting out information that anyone can use about Esau. It needs considerable rewriting. DJKrause 19:36, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Romans or Muslims?

Too much opinion, proselytization is not what we need here. Also, I read somewhere Muslims consider Esau their ancestor. Here it says Romans. Needs input from another POV.

"I read somewhere Muslims consider Esau their ancestor" ;

You got it a little mixed up. Abraham had two sons, Isaac and Ishmael. The Hebrews are said to be descendants of Isaac and the Arabs are said to be descendants of Ishmael. Furthermore, all Arabs are not Muslims nor are all Muslims Arabs. --SahirShah 06:58, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

you probably did read that - the people who make up the interpretations of 'prophesy' often use it to justify racial hatred. I've seen the israeli-palestinian conflict compared to israeli Philistine conflict, and that as a justification to consider all Palestinians godless and evil. as soon as I saw the edomites called godless I expected someone to then link them with a modern people group as an excuse to hate them, and that's exactly what whatever you read was most likely doing. None of these individuals are likely to have existed - instead they're probably just metaphors applied to people groups that the authors of the stories about the patriarchs wanted to charactorise. post-exilic hebrews were in need of cultural identity, so alot of stuff was added to their religious practice (most of the pentatuch is considered to have been written during or after the babylonian exile, according to the Oxford Annotated Bible and most other reliable sources I've encountered), part of what they added were excuses to explain ethno-cultural tensions in their area, like 'oh, we're sons of jacob and they're sons of esau, we're just allways going to be fighting'. *shrug* familiy trees get narrower in the present time, individuals do not branch out and produce whole ethnic groups, it's vice versa.

[edit] Amalekites

There is no mention in the article of the Amalekites being the descendants of Esau (and how they attacked the Hebrews when they were in the wilderness...and were eventually defeated) in Exodus 17. J. Vernon McGee refers to this in his books in Exodus Volume I. Are there other sources for this? Arx Fortis 06:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources about midrashim requested

Hi,

I requested sources for statements about midrashim. I am not saying that they are completely wrong, but it would be proper to cite the exact place - name of the Midrash and chapter.

Particular sentences that i marked "citation needed":

  1. "According to all midrashim, Esau is a very significant character in world history. Inasmuch as Jacob is considered to be the progenitor of the Children of Israel, it is Esau who is regarded as the forefather of Rome and the Roman Empire" - "according to all midrashim" is nice, but the midrashim are very vast and at least one or two examples from two different midrashim would be very good.
  1. "The argument is proposed that Esau was born with red coloring in his hair and body, and the ancient rabbis have connected this with the red banner and standard favored by Rome's legions" - "The argument is proposed" is a weasel word, source would be better.
  1. "Some see this as another sign of Rome, famous for her unique sword made of steel - the gladius - that smashed its way to world hegemony and on the way massacred the descendants of Jacob/Israel" - "Some see this" is a weasel word.
  1. The Talmudic saying "It is well-known that Esau hates Jacob" (Hebrew: הלכה בידוע שעשיו שונא ליעקב) is often quoted, up to the present, by nationalist and isolationist Jewish groups assering that Jew-hatred is an endemic and incurable phenomenon of some non-Jewish societies - source please, for the Talmudic saying and also an example of an "isolationist Jewish group" using it as a quote. Please don't tell me to Google it - i did and it wasn't so trivial to find.

Thanks. --Amir E. Aharoni 11:55, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rough as Esau's hand

Hello, I am actually confused, I am writing an essay on a poem which includes reference to Esau. "And from a heart as rough as Esau's hand" (line 28, Tennyson) I was wondering really why his hand would be rough, and perhaps if there is some real significance to that answer it should be included in the article. Thanks I would really appreciate an answer.

T.L.M December 29, 2006

It might be a reference to Genesis chapter 27. Read it, it's simple and educational. --Amir E. Aharoni 12:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

hello ,my friend amir before advising others he should read and understand not interprete genesis chapter 27(strictly read it not interpret)

Perhaps it's punning on Gen. 32:11 - "Deliver me, I pray You, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau; for I fear him, lest he come and smite [us all], the mothers with the children." Asat 08:04, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pop culture Esau

There is a reference to Esau in, of all places, The Blair Witch Project, in which Heather Donohue vaguely recalls being told a story "about Esau...[and] a pile of rocks", which sounds like Gen. 31:48-52, although those verses are about Jacob and Laban. Esau, known for his hairyness, was probably a better name to use in the film (about a legendary witch who is also reputed to be hirsute) since Jacob's many other attributes tend to overshadow the fact that he, too, was quite hairy. Asat 08:26, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "god hates fags" and other quotes

is there any reference in the bible to Esau being gay, only a lot of the signs ive seen have references to quotes like romans 9;13 or malachi 1;3 that when i look them up are along the lines of "God loved Jacob, but hated Esau" etc. Joevsimp 21:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

"Yahweh loves Jacob/Israel, hates Esau/Edom" is a theme in many prophetic books in the bible, but has nothing to do with Esau's sex life - it's more to do with the history between the kingdoms of Judah and Edom. 586 BC is the crucial date, when the Babylonians conquered Jersalem and took the aristocracy, including those who could write, into captivity - and the kingdom of Edom seems to have helped the Babylonians, hence the hatred for wicked Edom. Genesis was written by these exiled Judahite aristocrats (who included the priests and scribes from the Temple), and the "Jacob-and-Esau-were-brothers" story, and also the "Esau-was-the-father-of-Edom" story, date from that time. The only earlier reference is Amos 1:11, written in the 8th century BC, which speaks about Yahweh's hatred for Edom "because he pursued his brother with the sword), of words to that effect - note that Amos mentions Edom, the kingdom of that name, not Esau, and that the reference to Edom's brother is not literal but means the Judahites. But it does say "brother", which implies that the "brotherhood" of the Judahites and Edomites was recognised in the 8th century, so the basic Jacob/Esau story might be older than Genesis. Just when Amos saw the Edomites chase the Israelites, Yahweh only knows - but from the point of view of your question it doesn't really matter, the point is simply that Yahweh hated the descendents of Esau (not Esau himself) because they'd been hostile to the Israelites, not because of their sex lives.PiCo 07:15, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "The Esau of the Roman clerical world"

In the anti-Jesuit book Vatican Assassins by Eric Jon Phelps the following Esau reference occurs:

“But what is a Jesuit? The Society remains the Esau of the Roman
clerical world. It still chiefly seeks the wealthy and powerful; it is the
arch-enemy of progress and liberalism in Catholic theology . . . it
embarks on political intrigue, even to the destruction of State-forms,
whenever its interest seems to require it; it is hated by a very large
proportion of the Roman Catholic clergy and laity in every country.” (p. 30)

Having now read the present article, I still cannot comprehend what this author means by "the Esau of the Roman clerical world". Perhaps others can shed light on what this alludes to? __meco (talk) 16:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)