Talk:Entheogen

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is part of WikiProject Psychedelics, Dissociatives and Deliriants, an attempt to improve Wikipedia's coverage of hallucinogens. Feel free to participate by editing this article or by visiting the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.

Archives

Archive 1

[edit] Embedded list of entheogens & proper cleanup

I'd like to propose moving the embedded list of entheogens to the talk page until work is put forth to clean up the list with prose. I would like to keep the list around as it appears to be a good resource to be explored later, however, I think it detracts from the flow of the article as it currently stands. What is the normal policy on this? --Tylerdmace 14:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Good idea. The style seems to be to prefer prose to lists. I've gone ahead and removed the list.TheRingess (talk) 16:57, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Noting that there is a separate listing page at List Of Entheogens.Shamanchill (talk) 03:23, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Caffeine as an entheogen

Is caffeine an entheogen? As in, could you consume caffeine in a strictly spiritual context? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.176.14.100 (talk • contribs) 21:46, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Caffeine has been used by religious people in spiritual contexts (usually to focus on prayer), but it does not induce the entheogenic state of mind. Instead, it stimulates the central nervous system. That is to say, caffeine does not "facilitate religious experience" through an altered state of consciousness. According to the article on caffeine, it is considered an ergogenic aid. You can see where caffeine falls on the 8-Circuit Model of Consciousness, although this model is only useful for discussion as it is not intended to be scientific. —Viriditas | Talk 08:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The word "entheogen" has been corrupted to the point where this unfortunate (and certainly unnecessary) term is no longer synonymous with "psychedelic", perhaps because most people don't know what the latter term means. Therefore, common usage now implies a proper fit for this word as any psychoactive drug (e.g., tobacco) used within a quasi-religious or shamanic context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.90.53.13 (talk • contribs) 23:55, March 12, 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

“

The word entheogen is a neologism derived from the ancient Greek : ἔνθεος (entheos) and γενέσθαι (genesthe). Entheos literally means "god (theos) within", more freely translated "inspired". The Greeks used it as a term of praise for poets and other artists.”

The first sentence asserts that "entheogen" is a neologism, but the third sentence directly contradicts this by saying that it was used as a term of praise by (presumably ancient) Greeks. Which is it? 70.48.178.249 20:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

It's a neologism; the other is mythobabble— hard to keep straight. --Wetman 07:38, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that the definition of Greek root word gen, being "becomming", should also be added. See note below on original definition. Shamanchill (talk) 03:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Safrole = soma" identified in "10,000 year-old" vedas?"

“

there are well documented uses of safrole and safrole extractions similar to MDMA, documented in ancient Indian texts dating as far back as 8,000 B.C”

Is this an assertion that safrole is the long-sought unidentified soma, and furthermore, that literary references to soma date to 8000 BC? This is familiar material from New Age bulletin-board chat, but not encyclopedic. --Wetman (talk) 22:38, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] facts or wishful thinking

“

The word entheogen was coined in 1979 by a group of ethnobotanists and scholars of mythology (Carl A. P. Ruck, Jeremy Bigwood, Danny Staples, Richard Evans Schultes, Jonathan Ott and R. Gordon Wasson). The literal meaning of the word is "that which causes God to be within an individual". The translation "creating the divine within" is sometimes given, but it should be noted that entheogen implies neither that something is created (as opposed to just perceiving something that is already there) nor that that which is experienced is within the user (as opposed to having independent existence).”

My problem with this paragraph is that Jonathan Ott is the pen name of Terrance McKenna. McKenna has rejected the use of the word "entheogen" multiple times, because it implies that a "God" (Male, ego dominated, infinite, and monothiestic)is required for feelings of divine extacty. Both McKenna and A. Shulgin prefer the term "psychedelic" (a Greek neologism for "mind manifest"). "The term "psychedelic" was also seen as problematic, due to the similarity in sound to words pertaining to psychosis and also due to the fact that it had become irreversibly associated with various connotations of 1960s pop culture." Who sees it as problematic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.146.146.119 (talk) 04:54, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't remember McKenna ever rejecting the word "entheogen". Of course, it's possible that I missed it. Keep in mind, McKenna has criticized just about every single idea that he could address, so don't confuse his strong skepticism for outright rejection. There is certainly room for debate. —Viriditas | Talk 01:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

This is absurd. Jonathan is alive and living in Mexico, while Terrance has passed away. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.90.53.13 (talk • contribs) 23:55, March 12, 2008 (UTC)

It's irrelevant if McKenna later changed his mind on the use of the word "entheogen", as he was among the group of individuals commonly credited with coining the terms. To give more info on this in the article in question if probably too detailed to bother with, as it's too tangential to the subject. Finally, I'd like to add a citation on this, by referring to Richard Rudgley's "The Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Substances" pg 93 or the original paper by the coiners, written by Wasson (with the others as collaborators), and published in a 1979 Journal of Psychedelic Substances (I can add direct quotes from either if you like). If anyone can locate or has a copy of Rudgley's first book, "The Alchemy of Culture:Intoxicants in Society", it may also prove a good citation source. Thoughts? Shamanchill (talk) 02:11, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] General notes

Anybody knowing what should be the meaning of "[UDV/NAC]"? It appears (to me) do be completely unclear... --Antifumo (talk) 01:09, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

UDV is short for União do Vegetal, and NAC refers to the Native American Church. This is why full names need to be used, but in this case, it doesn't even belong as a parenthetical. —Viriditas | Talk 01:17, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

If these terms are to remain, they should at least be linked, no? I also think that they're a good practical example for the article, although they may not belong in the preamble. Shamanchill (talk) 02:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that the two neurochemical pathways as part of the pre-amble definition is limited in scope and I've not heard of this before, although I'll look into my copy of PIHKAL. I also question the use of Shulgin as source in this definition, as he is the expert in P and T entheogens, having catalogued/created/tested so many, but I'm not sure he's the definitive source for ALL entheogens, being a chemist, and not an anthropologist or ethnobiologist or neurologist. Is there another source for this, based on a more ethnobiological perspective? If not, I think it should be removed or altered to broaden scope. Thoughts? Shamanchill (talk) 03:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Original Wasson paper definition

The original paper by Wasson et al reads like this:

We ... propose a new term that would be appropriate for describing states of shamanic and ecstatic possession induced by the ingestion of mind-altering drugs. In Greek, the word entheos means literally 'god (theos) within' and was used to describe the condition that follows when one is inspired and possessed by the god that has entered one's body. It was applied to prophetic seizures, erotic passion and artistic creation, as well as to those religious rites in which mystical states were experienced through the ingestion of substances that were transubstantial with the deity. In combination with the Greek root gen-, which denotes the action of 'becomming', this term results in the word we are proposing: entheogen. ... In a strict sense, only those vision-producing drugs that can be shown to have figured in shamanic or religious rites would be designated 'entheogens', but in a looser sense, the term could also be applied to other drugs, both natural and artificial, that induce alterations in consciousness similar to those documented for ritual ingestion of traditional entheogens"

I think that this article should take the "looser sense" of the definition to include modern spiritual aids such as chemical DMT, Ketamine, LSD and others, as "ritually ingested" by Dr. John C. Lilly, Marsha Moore, and others. This also relates to my comments on broadening the neurological definition quoted from Shulgin above. Also making this note part of List of Entheogens talk page, as we'll need to settle on a hard definition on what to include, and I don't think that chemical substances should be excluded, just as the coiners of this term didn't. Shamanchill (talk) 03:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Maori non-use of Entheogens

Regarding this: "Also, it has been suggested that the Māori of New Zealand used the biologically related "Māori Kava" or kawakawa (Macropiper excelsum) as an entheogen (Bock 2000)." Which links to this - http://www.entheology.org/edoto/anmviewer.asp?a=67&z=5

If you read the linked article, it indicates there's no evidence that it *was* ever used as an entheogen by the maori, it just presents a base theory that according on the chemical reports, it could be used as an entheogen. Additionally, the theory it presents that there is no evidence due to the suppression of Tohunga doesn't seem *particularly* relevent to discussion of entheogen use, considering this was pre-drug war culture - there would have been less reason for entheogen herbal knowledge to be specifically repressed when other sorts of herbal knowledge weren't. To our knowledge, there are no known uses of entheogens by Maori. Finally, even with that chemistry reports indicating it might be usable, I can't seem to find even any modern reports of anyone actually 'tripping' on it? (And I do know people who regularly drink Kawakawa tea)

Actually, the chemistry theory appears to be bunk, as this toxicology report contraindicates it: http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/Regulatory/CompMed/PIL/IJEACCM/1/Macropiper%20excelsum%20(Kawakawa).pdf "The amount of myristicin in M. excelsum leaf is comparatively small, and the maximum recommended dose of the sponsored product would contain less than 100mg of myristicin, compared with the reported human oral TDLo of 342 mg for a 60 kg person (at which dose 'wakefulness' is the only behavioural effect reported)." TDLo being the "lowest published toxic dose", ie, at toxic doses, it still wouldn't be having any effect.

Unless anyone can provide any evidence of Maori entheogen use, of which we currently have none, I'm removing the passage.

-- 222.154.238.36 (talk) 00:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Plant C&P from 'Cultures' section

Someone plonked the following into the middle of the cultures section, which I've removed. Wrong place, I have no idea where it's from, and I have no interest in cleaning it up. But if someone else wants to:

" World Entheogens, Psychoactives and Ethnobotanicals-

Psychoactive and/or medicinal Cacti-

Ariocarpus agavoides Ariocarpus fissuratus Ariocarpus kotschoubeyanus Ariocarpus retusus Astrophytum asterias Astrophytum myriostigma Aztekium ritterii Carnegiea gigantea Coryphantha compacta Coryphantha elephantidens Coryphantha macromeris Echinocactus platyacanthus (Echinocactus visnaga) Echinocereus salm-dyckianus (Echinocereus scheeri) Echinocereus polyacanthus Epithalantha micromeris Lophophora williamsii Lophophora diffusa Mammillaria grahamii Mammillaria heyderi Mammillaria (Dolichothele) longimamma Mammillaria pectinifera (Solisia pectinata) Mammillaria (Mamillopsis) senilis Mammillaria sonorensis (Mammillaria craigii) Matucana madisoniorum Neoraimondia macrostibas Obregonia denegrii Pachycereus pecten-aboriginum Pachycereus pringlei Pelecyphora aselliformis Strombocactus disciformis Turbinicarpus pseudomacrochele Turbinicarpus pseudopectinatus (Pelecyphora pseudopectinata) Trichocereus species

“Ayahuasca” Admixtures and Associated Botanicals-

Teliostachya lanceolata Alternanthera lehmannii Iresine sp. Himatanthus sucuuba Malouetia tamaquarina Mandevilla scabra Tabernaemontana sp. Ilex guayusa Montrichardia arborescens Mansoa alliacea Tabebuia heteropoda Tabebuia incana Tabebuia sp. Tynnanthus panurensis Cavanillesia hylogeiton Cavanillesia umbellata Ceiba pentandra Chorisia insignis Chorisia speciosa Quararibea spp. Tournefortia angustifolia Epiphyllum sp. Opuntia sp. Anthodiscus pilosus Maytenus ebenifola Carludovica divergens Lomariopsis japurensis Erythroxylum spp. Alchornea castaneifolia Hura crepitans Gnetum nodiflorum Clusia sp. Tovomita sp. Ocimum micranthum Couroupita guianensis Bauhinia guianensis Caesalpinia echinata liandra angustifolia Campsiandra laurifolia Cedrelinga castaneiformis Erythrina glauca Erythrina poeppigiana Pithecellobium laetum Sclerobium setiferum Vouacapoua americana Phrygilanthus eugenioides Phtirusa pyrifolia Diplopterys cabrerana Mascagnia psilophylla Stigmaphyllon fulgens Uncaria guianensis Uncaria tomentosa Calathea veitchiana Abuta grandifolia Coussapa tessmannii Ficus sp. Virola sp. Cabomba aquatica Petiveria alliaceae Piper sp. Triplaris surinamensis Pontederia cordata Calycophyllum spruceanum Capirona decoriticans Guettarda ferox Psychotria spp. Psychotria viridis Rudgea retifolia Sabicea amazonensis Paullinia yoco Lygodium venustum Scoparia dulcis Brugmansia spp. Brunfelsia spp. Capsicum spp. Iochroma fuchsioides Juanulloa ochracea Nicotiana spp. Cornutia odorata Vitex triflora Rinorea viridiflora

“Cimora” Brew Plants and Admixtures- Trichocereus spp. Neoraimondia macrostibas Pedilanthus tithymaloides Isotoma longiflora Brugmansia spp. Iresine spp. Datura spp.

The Baneful Botanicals-

Old World-

Atropa belladonna ~ “Nightshade” or “Belladonna” Digitalis purpura ~ "Foxglove" Atropa mandragora (Mandragora officinalis) ~ “Mandrake” Hyoscyamus niger ~ “Henbane” Tabernatnthe Iboga ~ “Iboga Root” Amanita muscaria ~ “Fly Agaric” Helleborus niger ~ “Hellebore” Acorus calamus ~ “Sweet Flag” Peganum harmala ~ “Syrian Rue”

New World-

Ariocarpus retusus Brugmansia spp. Datura spp. Brunfelsia spp. Saphora secundiflora ~ “Mescal Bean” Pernettya furens and Pernettya parvifolia ~"Hierba Loca" Methysticodendron amesianum ~ “Snake Intoxicant” Iochroma fuchsioides ~ “Borrachera” Latua pubiflora ~ “Arbol De Los Brujos” Nicotiana spp. ~ “Tobacco”

Xochipilli/Macuilxochitl "Prince of Flowers" Statue Botanicals-

Psilocybe aztecorum ~ “Mushrooms” Nicotiana tabacum ~ “Tobacco” Rivea corymbosa ~ “Ololiuqui” Heimia salicifolia and/or Heimia myrtifolia ~ “Sun-Opener” or “Sinicuichi” Quararibea funebris ~ “Cacahuaxochitl” And one unidentified flower suspected to be a Brugmansia spp. or Datura spp.

Entheogens- Banisteriopsis caapi ~ “Vine of the Dead” or “Ayahuasca” Psychotria viridis Psilocybian Mushrooms ~ “Teonanacatl” Ipomoea violacea ~ “Tlitliltzin” Rivea corymbosa ~ “Ololiuqui” Argyreia nervosa ~ “Woodrose” Salvia Divinorum ~ "Pipilzintzintli" Trichocereus spp. ~ “San Pedro” Lophophora williamsii ~ “Peyote” Tabernanthe iboga ~ “Iboga” Diplopterys cabrerana ~ or “Ayahuasca” Heimia salicifolia and Heimia myrtifolia ~ “Sinicuichi” or “Sun-Opener” Mimosa hostilis ~ “Jurema” Amanita muscaria ~ “Fly Agaric”

Pseudo-Entheogens-

Cannabis sativa ~ “Marijuana” Brugmansia candida; sanguinea; aurea; vulcanicola ~ “Tree Datura” Nymphaea caerulea ~ “Blue Lotus” Nelumbo nucifera ~ “Scared Lotus” Acorus calamus ~ “Sweet Flag” Peganum harmala ~ “Syrian Rue”

Psychoactives- Passiflora incarnata ~ “Passion-Flower” Erythroxylum spp. ~ “Coca Leaf” Papaver somniferum ~ “Opium Poppies” Nicotiana spp. ~ “Tobacco” Mitragyna speciosa ~ “Kratom” Humulus lupulus ~ “Hops” Silene capensis ~ “Root of the White Ways” Calea zacatechichi ~ “Bitter Dream Herb” Catha edulis ~ “Khat” Areca catechu and Piper betle ~ "Betel Nut" and “Betel Leaf” Leonotis leonurus ~ “Wild Dagga” Sceletium tortuosum ~ “Kanna” Duboisia hopwoodii ~ "Pituri" Pedicularis densiflora ~ “Indian Warrior” Piper methysticum ~ “Kava Kava”

Ethnobotanicals- Camellia sinensis ~ “Tea” Theobroma cacao ~ “Cacao”or “Cocoa” or “Chocolate” Ilex Paraguariensis ~ “Yerba Mate” Ephedra spp. ~ “Ma Huang” Lactuca virosa ~ “Wild Lettuce Opium” Scutellaria lateriflora ~ “Skullcap” Valeriana officinalis ~ “Valerian Root” Verbena hastate “Blue Vervain” Pausinystalia yohimbe ~ “Yohimbe” Or (Corynanthe yohimbe) Myristica fragrans ~ “Nutmeg” Panax spp. ~ “Ginseng” Artemisia absinthium ~ “Wormwood” Aspalathus linearis “Rooibos” Leonurus sibiricus ~ “Motherwort” Gingko biloba ~ “Gingko” Rholdia rosea ~ “Golden Root” Canavalia maritima Sida acuta Zornia latifolia Verbascum blattaria "Moth Mullein" Osha Root Yerbe Santa Lobelia inflata ~ "Indian Tobacco" ~Polygala sibirica and Polygala tenuifolia "Taoist Memory enhancer"

Understudied Entheogens, Psychoactives and Other Ethnobotanicals-

Quararibea funebris ~ “Cacahuaxochitl” Lagochilus inebrians ~ “Turkish Inebriating Mint” Oncidium ceboletta, Cypripedium calceolus and other psychoactive orchids. Pancratium trianthum ~ “Kwashi” Kaempferia galanga ~ “Galanga” Lycoperdon mixtecorum and Lycoperdon marginotum ~ “Puffballs”

Virola calophylla, Virola colophylloidea, and Virola theiodora ~ “Virola” (Mashi-Hiri) Justicia pectoralis

Anadenanthera peregrina ~ “Yopo” Anadenanthera colubrina Tetrapteris methistica ~ “Painted Caapi” Methysticodendron amesianum ~ “Snake Intoxicant” (Deadly Poisonous) Petunia violacea ~ “Shanin” Tagetes lucida ~ “Mexican Tarragon” Mucuna pruriens Velvetbeans; Cowhage

Tanaecium nocturnum- aphrodisiac ~ Cestrum laevigatumn ~Coleus Blumei and Coleus Pumilus ~Cymbopogon densiflorus- causes dreams which foretell the future. ~Maquira sclerophylia ~ “Rapa dos Indios” ~Helichrysum foetidum- Zulu Trance Smoke ~Scirpus atrovirens - very powerful Mexican herb said to cure insanity

Acacia maidenii Datura spp. Sassafras albidum SHANSHI (Coriaria thymifolia) Argemone Mexicana ~ "Prickly Poppy" HELICHRYSUM FOETIDUM - Compositae (Straw Flower) M.senilis, M.heyderii, M.craigii, M.grahamii, M.micromeris. Synsepalum dulcificum ~"Miracle Fruit" TAIQUE (Desfontainia hookeri) KEULE (Gomortega keule) Iochroma Voacanga africana Desfontainia spinosa Bufo alvarius Add toads and animals Catharanthus roseus (Madagascar Periwinkle)

Add other “interesting plants”! " —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.154.238.36 (talk) 23:34, 5 May 2008 (UTC)