Talk:Enlightened absolutism

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I removed the Spielvogel quote because I felt that it was lacking the elaboration that would have been necessary in order to make it relevant. If someone wants to write more about the questioning of enlightened despotism's usefulness, possibly from a more interesting point of view than that of an introductory level textbook, feel free to put it back. I would like to further rework this article when I have more time (class starts in an hour? ACK!), but for now this will have to do. --User:anakolouthon

Should this page include mention of Cyrus II? --Vaergoth 01:54, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Agreed, I added it.--70.48.174.7 04:43, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't know where this should go but someone's vandalized this, could someone revert it to whatever's good? I have no idea how to do this, I just read Wikipedia, but this article is messed up...

Contents

[edit] Re-write

Just to let people know I intend to do a fairly serious re-write and expansion of this article. As a start I've removed references to such figures as Alexander the Great and Cyrus II being Enlightened Absolutists. The point being that Enlightened monarchs are influenced by the Enlightenment since these figures are pre-Enlightenment describing them as Enlightened seems to be nonsensical! Jezze 15:17, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

"In order to be considered "enlightened", they must allow religious toleration, freedom of speech and press, and the right to hold private property. They must foster the arts, sciences, and educations. Above all, they must not be arbitrary in their rules; they must obey the laws and enforce them fairly for all subjects." This paragraph in particular is dodgy, particularly the must, very few Enlightened absolutists fully embraced any of these principles. Eg. Catherine the Great set up different courts for different social orders and engaged in the continuing persecution of 'old believers' but is still considered by most historians to be an Enlightened Absolutist. Jezze 15:54, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

  • I have done some more work and will continue when I have a greater amount of time! (Hopefully with sources). Jezze 02:57, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
  • "Above all, they must not be arbitrary in their rules; they must obey the laws and enforce them fairly for all subjects." What laws? (the previous editor seems to have ignored that enlightened absolutists are still absolutists, the law derives from them!) Fair enforcement? (Even non-absolutist regimes later in history do not enforce law fairly ((e.g. the Committee of Public Safety, during the French Revolution, or the Cavalier Parliament and many other British Parliaments)). I decided to get rid of this outright since it really doesn't reflect the nature of enlightened absolutism. I think it confused the article rather than helped. Jezze 08:08, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
You make excellent points, Jezze, and I'd love to see this article fleshed out. Perhaps you should have a section explaining why a leader such as Alexander the Great or any other dictator who was considered to have been good or provided a positive effect on his/her people was not considered an Enlightened Monarch. For instance, I know that colloquially I thought of the Five Good Emperors when I first came upon this article. Let me know if you'd like any help with this. Elijahmeeks 18:27, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Modern" enlightened absolutists

Does it make sense to include someone as a "modern" enlightened absolutist? The term was coined to describe an evolution in the ideals of government following the Enlightenment, so I don't see why modern rulers would be described in these terms. Did they form their philosophy of rule after an extensive perusal of Enlightenment documents? Surely there is a better way of describing these rulers. —Vivacissamamente 19:53, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. At the very least, it needs a reference. I have removed the section until it can be provided. Dmcdevit·t 20:02, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the section once again. Besides the lack of reference, the controversy section in the article on Lee Kuan Yew suggests the suppression of free speech under his leadership, which doesn't fit with this article as it is written currently.131.181.251.66 02:11, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Continuing in this vein, I have removed "Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan"(sic) from the list of Englightened Absolutists. One, Pakistan is not a unitary absolutist state, and two, the extent to which Pakistan's generalissimo governs based upon Age of Reason polity is very debatable.--67.101.19.176 16:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Commonwealth

How would one characterize monarchs of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? They were practicing "enlightened" principles far before the monarchs mentioned below, and did not conduct the oppression manifested by some of the aforementioned monarchs. How does King Stanislaus Poniatowski fit in, in light of the May 3rd Constitution and its provisions? -~~

Not at all. The kings of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth cannot be considered absolute monarchs, because 1. they were forced to share power with the nobility and 2. they issued a constitution. Almost by definition, absolutist monarchs do not issue constitutions. Lockesdonkey 16:01, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Constitutions

User:Lockesdonkey you clearly know more than a fair bit on the topic! The only criticism I would have of the edits you've made is the issue of constitution... I don't know what country you're from but written consitutions are a distinctly USA/French invention ie. the American Constitution and the Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen. In fact before the French Revolution, in Europe it appears, to me at least, that most constitutions of nations are based on what would now be called "common law" in working British Common Law, based on traditional rights and privileges as they existed. In the context both Absolutist and Enlightened Absolutist monarchs are exercising their rights within the existing, unwritten, Constitutions of the nations they rule... (Jezze 05:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Maria Theresa

Unless I am mistaken, Maria Theresa was not merely "of Austria," but Maria Theresa, Holy Roman Empress. As per the orders of the Pragmatic Sanction, the Hapsburgs decided to allow the crown to pass to Maria Theresa, daughter of the otherwise heirless Charles VI. In addition to ruling in her own right as empress, she also was co-ruler with her son Joseph II for 15 years (1765-1780). (Kagan, Donald. The Western Heritage, 8th ed. Upper Saddle River, N.J. : Prentice Hall, 2003. ISBN 0-13-182839-8) Xcountry99 23:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, she was Holy Roman Empress, but no, not in her own right. Women were ineligible for the position, which was neither hereditary among nor at the disposal of the House of Habsburg. The position was theoretically elective, chosen by the (usually) four Electors, the Empire's highest ranking hereditary princes, plus the three highest Catholic prince-bishops. Since the 1400s, they always voted to elect a Habsburg, but any nobleman, even from outside the Empire, was legally eligible. What Maria Theresa's father obtained for her in the Pragmatic Sanction, by bribes, war and cessions, was the right to inherit most of the dynasty's vast hereditary lands in 1740, i.e. the archduchy of Austria, the kingdoms of Hungary and Bohemia, most of northern Italy, Silesia, the Austrian Lowlands (Belgium), etc. The electors also voted to give the Imperial crown to her husband, Duke Francis of Lorraine (who had to exchange Lorraine for Tuscany, since France was unwilling to allow the Habsburgs to rule a duchy on its border -- the Medici grand dukes were about to die out in Florence, so Tuscany was simply handed over to Francis by the Great Powers), and upon his death, to her son, with whom she shared rule. But real Habsburg power lay in their hereditary realms, not in the largely empty title of Emperor, which meant that all the German and some other reigning princes within the Empire owed him allegiance de jure, but since the Peace of Westphalia in 1648, they were de facto independent -- and even had the right to wage war on the Emperor. Lethiere 00:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Napoleon Bonaparte

Personally I'm uneasy with his inclusion as an Enlightened Absolutist. While he does draw many ideas indirectly from the Enlightenment this seems more to do with post-Revolution culture in France, rather than the Enlightenment itself. I personally would not consider him an Enlightened absolutist but the first modern one. Any thoughts? Jezze 04:20, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

do you have a scholar to agree with you? or is there none that agree that he is an "enlighten absolutist"? Rds865 (talk) 04:46, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ataturk

Should Kemal Ataturk be added to the list? Just based on a little bit I've read about him. 12.179.169.122 (talk) 13:15, 13 May 2008 (UTC)