Talk:Empire

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[edit] Last Paragraph

All I can say is ... give me a break.

Its a great example as to why less and less people take wikipedia seriously. "arguably at times lip service" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.234.203.156 (talk) 22:05, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of Fictional Empires

Could we have a list of fictional empires from books, films, shows, etc?

-G

[edit] Really Empires?

I don't know if the following states should be considered empires.

What about the Nabataean Empire?---it may prove interesting for Pre-Islamic history and its relation to the downfall of Roman empire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ghostwriter888 (talk • contribs) 14:30, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] American Empire

The U.S. is a empire today?

Bull****. Sure, it did stuff like a empire, and maybe was one.

Its not ruled by an emperor. Every state invades. Its got no colonies. What kind of an empire would that be then? The US is also a democracy and doesn't force beliefs of Religion or Culture like the Arab empire, or any empire tried.


Does not force beliefs of religion and culture? (no idea why YOU, Mr. O'reilly, used big letters) Get fucking real.

Heck yes. It has diverse territories and peoples under one rule, You've got Celtic, Teutonic, Nordic, Latin(as in Italian, French, Spanish, etc.), Slavic, Hispanic, African, Amerindian, Arabic, all under one banner. It has "colonies" like Wrangel Island, Pacific Archipelagos. Liberia could be considered a colony of Americans not under U.S. rule. It just isn't a city-state empire. Also, Empires don't have to force beleifs or anything. The Aztecs were pretty liberal imperials. They let conquests keep religion, culture, even leaders sometimes. The Alexandrian Empire neither. YOu could consider Palau, Micronesia, and American Samoa tributaries or conquests. The Phillipines were once a U.S. conquest. The Amerindians were conquered, The Spaniards in The Southwest were conquered. And about being a democracy, *laughs hysterically*, that's what they want you to think.--Whytecypress 00:29, 12 January 2007 (UTC)



America is an Empire

• Built itself on land does not belong to, after wiping out the Native Americans.


• Occupied Foreign lands,like California new Mexico, Hawaii, and some Canadian territories.


• Launch Invasion wars on Vietnam, Lebanon, Korea, Grenada, Panama, Afghanistan and Iraq.


• Forced its own Vision of protestant Christianity on American occupied Filipinos. They also did this to the American Indians that weren't exterminated---


• Supported external dictatorships, around the world, and destroyed emerged democracies such as the one in Chile (Salvador Allende ) and Iran ( Mussadiq).


• It has undeclared ,corrupt presidential emperors (two consuls =president & vice president) with a House of corrupt Elite-Senate , all working for big Firm companies, not the Hard working American people whom more or less they and the rest of the world become slaves to them.

The good Thing is that "History shows", that "Empires" don't live long, they come and go in relatively short time, but this one will stay even shorter and pass even quicker coz it came quicker than others before it.

Ferju 20:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Great, none of that has anything to do with being an Empire, but good for you for giving it some... well I would say "thought" but thats clearly not the case. pookster11 09:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

If Not an empire..Then it is an "EVIL Empire"Ferju 18:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

THE USA IS not an empire. Sure, we try to force democracy. But that doesn't mean we are an empire. We vote for the people that represent us. (if you don't vote, you can't complain) Sure, we invade other countries, but we don't make them join us. The USA may not be the best country, but it is surely not an empire.


Everything you discussed above every nation has done. WHy single out the United states to call it an EMpire? PLease find me an example of a country that hasnt done these things!! Fill teh list or empty the list of america. Mrdthree 17:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

To Rudyard Kipling.

Democracy can not be forced, but embraced , and do not give me this “White Man's Burden fallacy “ to justify the Americans' crimes all over the world.

And a Question.. by saing { We vote for the people that represent us.}

Do you mean that Americans "democratically elect" their leaders (war criminals) to power to do these crimes? ...are Americans as people responsible too?.

Ferju 15:01, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Why is America calleda democracy---it's supposed to be a REPUBLIC!

We should just reorganize our Republic into an actual American Empire, then destroy a few nations - just to make people understand what an empire really is. Travis T. Cleveland (talk) 07:08, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A TIMELINE, dammit

I think there done oughter be a timeline of Empires. We can start by timelisting the below list:

Historical empires (with approximate dates)
Early empires
First millennium AD
Early Second millenium AD
Late 2nd millenum AD
20th

* The United Kingdom still has many overseas territories, and also the commonwealth realms are considered to be completely self governing colonies as they recognise the British monarch as their head of state.

** De facto, The British Empire ended in the 1960s

Why does an empire have to exist as a "multi-etnic state"? A large collection of similiar states might still be an empire, might it not? Avalon 11:15, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

  • That would look a lot better. Just make sure to include all of the empires listed. 12.220.47.145 19:30, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Oh, and when it means "multi-ethnic" that would include similar states. Otherwise the Akkadians for example wouldn't be considered an empire. 12.220.47.145 19:32, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] THIRD REICH

Why isnt the third reich considered an empire? Mrdthree 19:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know the third reich does fit the deffention of an Empire. It did invade and control countries.--Scott3 12:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree, they conqured a lot of land, and sure acted like an empire Seldon1 17:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] cleanup

I added the cleanup tag because this article is disorganized and could use wikification. see my edit as of 20:29 11/28/05 to see what I mean by reorganizing. --Phil 01:33, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Evil Empire

Perhaps including something along the lines of "Although Ronald Reagan once referred to the Soviet Union as the 'Evil Empire', it is, in fact, not an empire, and he was just being the alliterate phrase-spewing anthropomorphic raisin he is known as today".

Very funny. Ha. Ha. Please read WP:NOT. Walton monarchist89 11:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The later post only supports the former posts suggestion. Go for it.

-G

[edit] Definition of Empire

It is tough to define exactly what is meant by "Empire", although what is present on this page seems sufficient. The problem is that a timeline of Empires cannot be completely objective under these circumstances. I offer the example of the inclusion of "American Empire", which is definately a debateable point (i.e. yes the states do have an enormous range of influence, but does that really mean they are an "empire"?).

It's a very disambiguations term,
firstly an empire can have a metroploe and land overseas which is clearly the kind of empire many imagine looking at European colonial powers. this gets very confusing when one looks at land based sprawling empires like Russia/USSR, austor-Hungarian, etc - can these be compared with the previous category?
secondly do we really suppose that "empire" is based solely upon land ownership, think about informal influence (UK in Egypt, Iran, Argentina, etc) and more recently the USA.... Similarly empire is often an expression of the very vague concept of power (be it political, military, diplomatic, economic, religious, etc, etc)
IMHO it all a load of very vague notions, with no proper defining that is clear and decisive, making it very hard to compare "empire" across time and various regions. Pickle 05:45, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

The definition of an empire as a state with dominion over culturally and ethnically distinct populations is as wrong as the "all swans are white" claim. An empire is a state with an emperor as its ruler. Period. Germany und Japan were/are empires with a homogeneous population. The k.u.k. Austria-Hungary or tsarist Russia were not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.29.115.20 (talk) 09:30, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] American Empire ???

In reference to the list of empires on this talk page, I feel it must be made clear that while America may be a de facto empire, it is not a de jure empire, and has never styled itself an empire, nor has it ever had an emperor. Although it is certainly powerful enough to be termed 'imperial', and could be described as 'multi-ethnic' because of its sovereignty over Guam, Puerto Rico and Hawaii, I think that we should restrict this article to the de jure definition of empires. (Arguably, under this definition, the British Empire was not an empire either, but Queen Victoria was styled Empress of India, and the term British Empire was in common use among British people until after WWII.) Walton monarchist89 12:26, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

See American Empire (term). It's a debate as old as the sun. Well, not quite that old. Interestingly, the same thing was said by a Dutchman about Dutch Empire. Note that in the course of the Spanish-American War, the USA attacked and took over what was left of the Spanish Empire - Guam, Philippines, Cuba and Puerto Rico. These were Spanish imperial possessions that then became American possessions. Did they suddenly cease to be "imperial"? There were certainly many in the US at that time that looked enviously on European empires and believed that it was time for the USA to have a piece of the cake too. There were also many that looked down on America acting like Old Europe. In the Penguin History of the United States by High Brogan (arguably a "bread and butter" history book, not controversial), "imperialism (American)" appears in the index with several entries. If American imperialism can be talked of, then one can arguably talk of an American Empire, even if the United States did not relabel itself as such, or the common folk use it in every day conversation. Gsd2000 12:51, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
That couldn't have been better expressed. Indeed, the very usage is controversial among us. --Wetman 01:08, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Is manifest destiny imperial, is then acquiring Alaska and Hawaii imperial ?, certainly the acquisition of the former Spanish colonies is colonial. the more important thing, especially today is the informal empire, the non formal control over various areas. in the context of the study of the British empire we refer to places like Argentina (just a massive investor), and Iran (formal treaty over oil rights) as informal empire. thus this term can be transfered across to the US, but this highlights the problem of what on earth is empire, imperialism, et al, as no one can agree one common definition. Pickle 21:47, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
America became an Empire after the Spanish-American War in 1898. After it acquired Guam, the Philippines, Cuba and Puerto Rico, it became an Imperial power to match those in Europe and was being recognized by those powers as a powerful country. In the Spanish-American War article it even says in the Aftermath section that America became an Imperial power. Also all Empires do not have to have emperors. Certainly the Spanish Empire did not have an Emperor/Empress, right? Lord Vader 4:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Few people other than the Chamorro, Puerto Ricans, possibly Samoans, Hawaiians, and native Americans could really care if America is an empire or not Isaac Crumm 09:04, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

This entire article is slanted in such a way as to allow America to be put into the category of Empire. Not one ounce of rigor. More propaganda from the America hating leftists. Traitors. 68.106.248.211 03:03, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Lots of things can be debatable about the definition of empire and USA's inclusion as one, but I think the examples of international intrigue and undue influence are not what would make the US an empire. Nor would I even think of the American presence in the Philippines and Cuba as outright imperialism; they set up what were purported, at the time at least, to be transitional governments preparing these colonized nations for freedom. For many reasons, it is easy to criticize the reality of these regimes, but things are not as black and white as they seem in those instances. Likewise, conquering of Spanish colonial territory in the Southwest and California can hardly be viewed as expansion of empire over the Spanish. That's not how the colonial 'game' worked. However, in the oldest and most obvious sense, American domination of its many different Aboriginal nations--Cherokee, Cree, Navajo, Sioux, to name but a few--is imperial. The US, like every country of the Americas, is essentially an empire from its foundations. As has been discussed, if you think that these realities do not reflect what an empire is, then we need a clearer definition.AnthroGael 16:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

~~Sovereignty over a smattering of islands, or even an archipelago in Asia (Phillippines) does not an empire make.~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.109.119.3 (talk) 09:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The United States is not an Empire in any form. Stop trying to rewrite history to push your antiamerican agendas. Travis Cleveland (talk) 00:56, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Unbelievably, this article contains no central discussion of imperial systems other than European/Western empires. This is ethnocentric, culturally biased, and fundamentally incomplete. There have been empires and imperial systems for centuries before the crusades, or the European colonial empires, or the discussion of whether or not American hegemony constituthttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Empire&action=edit&section=6es empire. Without a substantial discussion of the many many empires of the past, this article remains irretrievably one-sided.—thames 19:23, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Your criticism doesn't make it sound so irretrievable; all you need do is add content on non-European empires. siafu 19:31, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree. If you really want to see loads of info about other empires, add it yourself. Isaac Crumm 09:01, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm removing the POV tag as this is a misuse of it. The article does mention non-Western empires - just because the largest section happens to be on Western imperialism doesn't mean that it's POV, it just means that as Siafu says, it needs to be beefed up for non-European empires. This article is not arguing that imperialism equals Western imperialism, so it's not POV. Just incomplete. Gsd2000 21:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Just to add to my comment above - the article begins: "An empire ... comprises a set of regions locally ruled by governors, viceroys or client kings in the name of an emperor." What is POV or culturally biased about that? It goes on to say "The actual political concept predates the Romans by several hundred years: empires began to appear soon after the first cities made the necessary administrative structures possible. The Akkadian Empire of Sargon of Akkad furnishes one of the earliest known examples." This is saying exactly what you said in your criticism: "There have been empires and imperial systems for centuries before the crusades". Gsd2000 21:35, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
It contains a handful of sentences on imperial systems other than European/Western. It has multiple long sections on European/Western/United States imperialism. According to WP:NPOV#Undue_weight, that is precisely a violation of NPOV. The tag ought to remain until the balance is restored.—thames 21:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
That section, which I already read before posting above, is about viewpoints. This article is not expressing competing views! Again, this article is not arguing that imperialism equals Western imperialism - that would be a viewpoint. Gsd2000 22:01, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Alternately, instead of insisting on NPOV and putting a tag in place, you could just expand the article as needed. siafu 22:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
WP:NPOV#Anglo-American_focus is also an NPOV problem with this page. It's not NPOV by commission, it's NPOV by omission. I would love to expand the article, discussing the major imperial systems, but that takes time, and until that time, the NPOV tag serves as a warning to the reader.—thames 22:07, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Apparently you have plenty of time for berating this article here on the talk page, but not on actually improving the content. This is curious, as I was under the impression that the purpose of editting wikipedia was to spend time on improving the encyclopedia. siafu 17:01, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Hold on, you are complaining about Empires that existed before the Crusades. How can a failure to adequately mention them be cultural bias when those cultures have been non-existent for centuries?!! I really believe that you are misunderstanding what the NPOV should be used for. Gsd2000 22:11, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The more I read about NPOV the more I think it is crazy to tag this article NPOV. "The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these are fairly presented, but not asserted. All significant points of view are presented, not just the most popular one. It is not asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions." There are no conflicting views here!!! Each historical era of empire is not a "view", absolutely nowhere on this article does it espouse the view that empire equals Western empire, and a failure to have enough words on non-European empires does not equal a "biased" view let alone any view at all. This article clearly states that there were empires other than European ones. Gsd2000 22:24, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted the NPOV tag again. The "expand" tags that you have added correctly address the concern that you are raising. Tagging this as NPOV is misleading in itself. Gsd2000 22:26, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
It's POV because by omitting any substantive discussion of non-Western imperialism, this article has implicit anti-Western or Euro-centric focus. The implication is that only the West has imperialism notable enough to warrant discussion, which is clearly not the case. That's one-sided and reflects the bias of the editors up to this point.—thames 03:07, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
The fact that non-European empires existed is mentioned already mentioned several times. There are several references to non-European empires in the first two paragraphs and in the list of empires at the end. If all editors held your opinion about NPOV, Wikipedia would be strewn with NPOV tags for factual articles that are incomplete, with one set of facts discussed more than another set. Now, if there was absolutely no mention of an empire other than European ones then I would agree that this article was biased - but it does mention it, several times, so it's not biased, just needs fleshing out with the expand tags that you put in. By labelling it NPOV you are indicating to the user that it is advocating a particular point of view - but it's patently not. Gsd2000 11:55, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
It remains NPOV. A few trifling sentences to represent several thousand years of empires from Akkad to China to India to Africa, and then several thousand words on European empire and how American hegemony "might" be empire is a complete misrepresentation of the concept of Empire. It is NPOV by omission not commission.—thames 13:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gerrymandering

Although the phenomenon discussed is very real, and great source of turmoil to the empires/colonies, I don't think gerrymandering is the right term to describe it. Perhaps a term that means something much more arbitrary than gerrymander. It was also a big problem in the Middle East and in Africa.Isaac Crumm 09:09, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I also thought "gerrymandering" was inappropriate when reading the article, so I took the liberty of rewording the sentence to remove the term. Equendil Talk 10:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English use

Why does empire not have 'the' before it? Skinnyweed 12:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Are you talking about the name of the article ? If so it would imply the article is about one empire in particular, which it isn't, in addition, it's contrary to naming conventions on Wikipedia, see WP:NAME#General conventions Equendil Talk 10:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Modern "empires"

I removed the last paragraph of this section:

This is the usual US-bashing that characterizes Wikipedia. It should not be re-added unless the weasel words ("may be known", "many suggest") are removed or re-worded and cited. This whole paragraph is one big {{Fact}} tag.

Also the superfluous comparison of the civil war with the definition of empire needs to go - if nothing else because it clashes with the friggin' definition given at the start of the article, not to mention it's a lame attempt at a lead-in from thin air.

European Union seems to qualify for a modern empire see European Union gets its military fist, European Defense Agency, European Rapid Reaction Force.Mrdthree 13:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

That's a pretty weak argument, just because the E.U has a developing united Military Force does not make it an Empire. To be an Empire it must Dominate some other territories against their will, all the Territory of the E.U has entered into it totally voluntarily and Democratically. You might call the E.U a superpower, but it is not an Empire. Because of this I've removed the European Union from the List of Empires, again. --Hibernian 16:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
The EU is exerting its hegemony on people in the former Yugoslavia. Mrdthree 16:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

And are you going to present any evidence of this? The only thing I can think of to make sense of your claim in the E.U's peace-keeping mission in Bosnia EUFOR, and that mission is recognized by the U.N and is willingly accepted by the Bosnian Government, so to call it a "Military Hegemony" is very strange. It's not like the E.U invaded Bosnia and started dictating to them or something. So unless you can come up with a good argument (or even a source that calls the E.U and Empire) I'll be removing it again from the list. If the E.U is to be mentioned on this page there will first have to be a section explaining why it is believed that the E.U is an Empire, you cannot just blatantly put it in a list of Empires without some discussion. --Hibernian 01:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

OK I am going to start collecting evidence that smaller countries consider the EU hegemonic. TO my mind a "modern empire" has three defining characteristics: it is bigger than most countries (indicates an imperialist past), has relative economic wealth (indicator of capitalist-imperialism), and attempts to use its political and economic capital to influence other nations (hegemonic policy). For example without the influence of the EU, the Ukranian government would likely collapse, perhaps other eastern european nations as well. I would guess that Russians (vis a vis Belarus), Serbians, Africans, and certain Asian nations all view the EU as a hegemonic force. Europeans themselves aspire to focus and expand European power. Many scholars and religious people consider the EU a 'potential' empire. While admittedly teh EU is not an empire 'de jure' it has well known expanisionist desires, has already rewritten the borders of other countries and formed a military. Some articles below:
    • "These days hegemony is played through the International System by supreme powers such as the United States of America, China, Russia, India and European Union."[1]
    • "AGOA was created largely in response to the growing hegemonic economic presence of the EU in Southern Africa"[2]
    • "..EU enlargement has already degenerated into the same tiresome and antiquated mercantilist game among 19th century continental Big Powers."[3]
    • "Europe's effort to bring Russia to agreement to its principles of conducting foreign relations will be interpreted as "double standards" and an attempt at achieving "regime change". " [4]
    • "End times news EU: Final World Empire" a book[5]
    • "The new approach taken by the EU can be understood within the context of the hegemonic dominance of neoliberalism within political elites." [6]
    • "EU's region-building and boundary-drawing policies: the European approach to the Southern Mediterranean and the Western Balkans "[7]
    • "The European centre exercises a hegemony over its peripheries, and it is only through full EU membership that European periphery states may become equal to the states at the European centre." [8]
    • "Europe as Empire: The Nature of the Enlarged European Union "[9]
    • REview of above book: "Zielonka’s starting point is the fact that the ending of the Cold War, by allowing the ‘old’ EU to incorporate first a group of neutral states and then several ex-members of the Warsaw Pact (including ex-components of the Soviet Union), changed the nature of the Union.....the EU has itself transformed the countries of Central and Eastern Europe too—acting as an ‘empire’ in one sense by coercing its neighbours into adopting economic, legal and political patterns in its own image..."[10]
      • Jan Zielonka is Professor of European Politics at the Univeristy of Oxford and Ralf Dahrendorf Fellow at St Antony's College.[11]
    • "Geopolitics of European Union Enlargement: The Fortress Empire "[12]
Mrdthree 19:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

So here is my suggested passage explaining how the EU is a "modern Empire":

After its origins as a trade bloc, the Post-Cold war European Union has since issued its own currency [13], formed its own military [14], and exercised its hegemony in Eastern European Nations and abroad.[15][16][17][18]. As a consequence, political scientist, Jan Zielonka [19], has argued that the EU has transformed itself into an empire by coercing its neighbours into adopting economic, legal and political patterns in its own image [20].

Mrdthree 19:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Haitian Empire

I removed the "haitian empire" entry (that linked to history of Haiti) from the list of empires, while rulers named themselves "emperors" on two occasions, I don't think Haiti could qualify as an "empire" during any period of its history. Equendil Talk 10:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roman Impire date

According to this link it is debated when the roman impire rise. I'll be putting somthing the article. I'll also put both dates of the collapse of the eastern and western impire.--Scott3 17:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Roman empire began after the First Punic War with the acquisition of Sardinia, Corsica, and Sicily. The Roman Empire began in 27BC with the First Settlement under Augustus. pookster11 09:59, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] LANGUAGES IN ROMAN EMPIRE

The Romans imposed Latin thoroughly in Western Continental Europe, but less successfully in Britain and in the East. Well, I'm graduated in History and well know that Roman Empire of East rejected Latin for Greek and was also culturally Greek, but this is the first time in my life I hear that Latinization of Britain was "less successfull". For what I know Celtic England (Scotland and Wales were outside Roman Empire) was fully latinized and became German only after the late invasions of Danes, Angles, Saxons and so on. More, I find simply absurd that British Empire (which never was an Empire, being Queen Victoria only Empress of India) is considered still existing only because Britain still has some scattered islands in the world! And no comment about "American Empire". Are we sure that this article in neutral? Val

[edit] Japan

Japan is the only state in the world without and Emperor, yet it is both said to have ended and be an example of a non-imperial state. If the Central African Empire is an empire surely modern Japan is too.

What areas does modern Japan exert imperialist control over that are not culturally Japanese? pookster11 10:01, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Japan's ruler being called an Emperor means very little in consideration of its being an empire or not. Still, while it is certainly less imperial than many other nations, the Ryukyuans and the Ainu are two dominated nations native to the current territories of Japan. Despite significant efforts and successes in assimilation since the late 19th century, I think it is unfair and inaccurate to dismiss these two groups as culturally Japanese. As the Ainu represent a small Hokkaido minority numbering as little as 30 000 and almost without any speakers of their native language, I can see how they often get ignored as imperialized subjects. However, the Ryukyuans form a majority in the Okinawa prefecture with a significant minority in the Kagoshima prefecture. They may not be seeking complete independence from Japan, but they represent a distinct cultural, linguistic, and territorial entity in Japan that is dominated by the Japanese majority. That is imperial.
Incidentally, the unreferenced statement that Japan is 99% ethnically Japanese is wrong. While figures are widely debatable for a number of reasons, George Hicks says there are 6 million - 4.5% - ethnic minority Japanese {George Hicks, Japan's hidden apartheid: the Korean minority and the Japanese., (Aldershot, England ; Brookfield, VT: Ashgate, 1998), 3.} Still, I would reduce this to more like 2.25% since he includes the Burakumin in that number. In sum, something like 97.5% is a more accurate figure than 99%. AnthroGael 20:26, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of Empires

The list section of this article is becoming very long; it's already longer than the entire rest of the article. It's also, IMO, the contentious part of the whole thing as editors passing by have often added or removed entries without discussion. If there are no objections to the split, I'll go ahead and do it myself tomorrow. siafu 22:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] [43 for Britain]

Ok i support and love the British empire and its might but 43 who came with that Number. werent the romans here at that rime?


[edit] New empires to be added to the list

  • Neo-Babylonian Empire
  • Athenian Empire
  • Carthaginain Empire

I can't believe they have been ignored!

I'll do Carthage now. 58.165.170.180

Another: *Kushite Empire

[edit] This article should be re-written.

The definition of empire used in this article is taken much too loosely, using definitions from dictionaries. The concept of "empire" is much more complicated than simply invading a neighbouring territory. What's worse is that most of the article is written based on this loose definition (especially the ridiculous list of empires, no offense), in light of the fact that the definition is disputed, which is even stated in the intro. At least include information based on alternative definitions. --Šarukinu 18:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Well if you want a very direct definition...

Empire: Any collection of countries in which one parent country establishes government and its cultural beliefs and innovation.

And all those empires look fine to me. Some I've never heard of but i doubt they arent empires.

The trouble here is what is the definition of empire, i.e. a one power establishing hegemony over a number of others, and the popular conception of what an empire should be, by rights a single small city state establishing hegemony over its neighbours should be able to call itself an Empire but the popular conception is that Empires should be large powerful and monolithic.KTo288 01:44, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Core and periphery

I've substituted the traditional term metropole for the term Core countries in this article. The term "core country" as used in World-systems theory i.e. 'industrialized capitalist countries' is not the same as the term 'core' as I understand it to relate to empires i.e. a nation at the centre of an empire. The World-systems theory use seems only to date from the 80's, and there have been Empires around long before that, a lot of them not industrialised and not capitalistic.KTo288 01:44, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you

Thank you so much to whomever deleted that god awful controversial list of empires. *hugs* —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.64.69.139 (talk) 00:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] the biggest empires?

can we create a list of the biggest empires? --İlhanli 13:25, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

no —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.226.67.23 (talk) 03:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Modern Chinese EMpire and Tibet

Have we discussed the modern Chinese state and its imperialist ambitions in Tibet, India, Korea, Taiwan, and border conflicts with Vietnam, Russia, and Japan. As I recall, China supports a repressive puppet state in North Korea that would not exist otherwise, unilaterally occupied North Korea, invaded Tibet. I think research into this topic is relevant to teh article.Mrdthree 16:57, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

"The New Chinese Empire: And What it Means for the United States." Ross Terrill, Harvard UNiversity.[21]
"Hegemon: China's Plan to Dominate Asia and the World".Steven W. Mosher. [22]

Mrdthree 01:50, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Contradictory to your comment China has been loosing much of its dynastic territories since the 1850s to its neighbors, including the ceding of Mongolia and portions near India. Juxtposed to the American imperialism throughout its ultra- genocidal colonial days, the later days of the 19th Century Roosevelt era, and its "unfailing" support of corrupt "decocratic" powers? Problems with this comment, North Korea went rogue right after the Korean War, India invaded Chinese territories and after the Indians lost the war, lost Dehli and its eastern provinces, China returned the territories with additional disputed territories to them (under the Mao era!). Tibet was part of the Qing dynasty, the ROC, Republic of China so in terms of claim, China has a portion of the claim, for god sakes even Taiwan has freakin' claims to Tibet AND Mongolia. How can you gun-totering assholes even not consider Japan a genocidal magalomaniac, self-attributed Arian empire during World War, how can you ignore its treatments of its northern islanders, Okinowans and its illegitamate claim to part of the Russo-Chinese(ROC) territories it annexed during WWII. Hell if our US armed forces can fully pardon the leading practitioners of the Japanese bio- torturers of Unit 731 (for their bio- info)who killed millions of Chinese, Russians, and Koreans, (not to mention white POWs) it deserves a seat in the spotlight of guilt and error. Damn the high horsed talk of "we'll ignore the oppressed Chinese people if we deal with them in business". Yeah, we Americans will give you freedom, at the expense of your independence, that's our style. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.144.30.16 (talk) 14:48, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
While most of these comments are tangential, I see five main points offereed by User:63.144.30.16: (1) China has been losing its dynastic territories since the 1850's; (2) China ceded portions of its territory to Mongolia and India; (3) North Korea is a rogue state no longer supported by China; (4) India invaded China; (5) ROC and PROC have competing claims to China, Mongolia and Tibet. Very interesting.I will try to find a source that includes your point of view. Mrdthree 15:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Response to claims: (1) The only difference between the Qing Empire (1600-1900) and PRC is Mongolia [23]; (2) Mongolia gained independence from the Qing dynasty not the PRC, and was a Soviet satellite until 1990, I dont know about India but PRC definitely invaded Vietnam, which was not part of the Qing Empire; (3) China is the main source of aid to North Korea; (4) China invaded India; (5) PRC 'liberated' Tibet from non-existant British forces.Mrdthree 16:30, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Although it's debatable, China should definitely be considered a potential modern empire (like America). Just as the Soviet Union succeeded the Russian Empire, so the PRC is built on the Manchu Empire. It's multi-ethnic and relies on force to hold itself together. Furthermore, it's embarking on international adventures that could be construed as imperialism. Wouldn't it be worth adding? Brutannica (talk) 23:07, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removed SCO

I just wanted to let people know that I removed the paragraph about the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. The organization is a weak economic/military alliance at best (at least for now, that may change), and nowhere even close to qualifying as an empire, even by the loose definitions supplied in this article. However, if someone is seeking a replacement for the SCO, I think China by itself qualifies as an empire (if you've been out to Xinjiang lately, you'll know what I mean). China is also the major driving force behind the SCO. Cheers! Otebig 12:44, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested merge at Imperialism

look, why would anyone want 2 add imperialism to empire??!!Anakin908 13:22, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. It doesn't make any sense. Imperialism should be kept seperate. Imperialism is related but not nearly close enough to merge the articles.--Billy 20:11, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced statements removed

I have removed the following statements, as they have been tagged "citation needed" for several months:

  • The Neo-Assyrian empire, founded by Tiglath-Pileser III in the mid-8th century BC, was the earliest example of a centrally organized, multinational empire, which was comparable to, and predated the Roman Empire by at least six centuries.
  • many point out that the introduction of Christianity and its strict orthodoxy actually created more problems in Late Antiquity than it solved

If anyone can find sources to back up these claims, feel free to re-add them. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 17:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

U.S is an empire. it does wat it wnts and it has "territories', nother name for colonies!! they capture hawaii and only want power. Do u know how many conspiricies there are out there? One.. world trade center blown up by U.S. to go to war and stop the terrerists that the u.s supplied around 10 years back. U.S never flown on the moon. if it was, then why was the flag waving when there is no air. —Preceding unsigned comment added by You123456789 (talk • contribs) 15:55, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, the US captured Hawaii - because American-Hawaiian sugar interests did - and it DID go to the moon (that flag was held up by wires). It is a republic, federation, empire, and superpower, as well as a democracy. What it is not: a monarchy. That was decided upon from the beginning. An empire it most assuredly is (the government has used coercion against cultures within its own boundaries on numerous occasions: the end of the American Civil War, civil rights incidents, the quelling of race riots, the sequestration of the Native Americans, the quelling of various cults; it is also a multi-ethnic country: thank you, Ellis Island and Castle Garden); and a democratic republic it also most assuredly is (we vote and we have governing councils, don't we?) 204.52.215.107 (talk) 19:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Random spew cleanup

This bit of spew made it's way here...

While many empires were extremely successful, the Alex Empire is and will always be elite. Within the Alex Empire, scum are strictly forbidden and it never rains. Thanks to many skilled Chinese physicians, the sky permanently reflects Alex's amazing visage. Alex is clearly the Empress, and second in command is Kaviss, commonly known for the abbreviation KGB - Kaviss is gonna get you bitch. If you cross Alex, your most likely fate will be a sentence to serve in the Pit Of Burning Inferno™.

I've undertaken it's removal.Cocacola4blood (talk) 00:24, 23 March 2008 (UTC)