Talk:Emperor Nintoku

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[edit] Ōkimi?

Eirikr, you have not presented any reasons why okimi would be incorrect, and this is even contrary to your "promise" in the edit summary you yourself wrote. We all know that monarchs of that period did not know, nor use, the title tenno, they were known by other titles, of which okimi is one and recognized in scholarly works. Or did you not know? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.251.178.249 (talk • contribs) 20:56, 12 April 2006 (UTC).

Hello 84.251.178.249 -- (You beat me to the punch in commenting here, お待たせしました。) Sorry to butt heads, but where have you run across Nintoku Ōkimi?
Googling for either "Nintoku Ōkimi" or "Nintoku Okimi" results in zero hits. Googling for "仁徳大君" yields exactly one hit, which in and of itself seems to be a Goofle, as it were -- the "cache" link fails out, and simply viewing the link itself shows no instances of 仁徳大君, with only one 大君 on the page at all, but in an entirely different context, talking indirectly about the Meiji emperor (where we see 明治天皇 but not 明治大君). Looking up the term 大君 in Shōgakukan's 1988 edition of the 国語大辞典 does list 「天皇の敬称」 as the first definition, and the 和英中辞典 第2版 of 1993 shows 大君 as His Majesty, both suggesting an indirect address rather than a title. Googling for "仁徳天皇"+"大君" yields around 245 hits, but 大君 is again not used as a title -- there are no instances of 仁徳大君 anywhere I can find. I know that the web in Japan is not as developed as it is here, but if the appellation 仁徳大君 were common, I'd expect to find at least one hit.
If you have some source showing this use, please clue me in here. As it presently stands, I find no evidence for Nintoku Ōkimi, and have thus removed this from the article text. Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 21:12, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I am asking why okimi would be incorrect. It does not necessarily need to be in form "Nintoku Okimi", some other form showing that title which is more correct than tenno, is also acceptable. Are you contesting that Nintoku was truly called okimi? "The ruler of Japan was variously known as ヤマト大王/大君 (yamato ōkimi, Great King of Yamato), 倭王/倭国王 (waō/wakokuō, King of Wa, used externally), 治天下大王 (amenoshita shiroshimesu ōkimi or sumera no mikoto, Great King who rules all under heaven, used internally) in Japanese and Chinese sources prior to the 7th century. The first documented use of the title "tennō" is in the diplomatic letter from Empress Suiko to Emperor Yang of Sui China in 607 CE..." Btw, my computer does not display Japanese signs... thus, no need to write them, please use transliterations. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.251.178.249 (talk • contribs) 21:50, 12 April 2006 (UTC).

Hello 84.251.178.249 -- Since this issue seems to relate to edits across most of the list of Japanese emperors, I'm copying this discussion to Talk:List of Emperors of Japan#title anachronisms, territories etc. Please give me some time to reply there before continuing. Thanks! Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 21:59, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
PS -- To sign your comments on Talk pages, just add four tildes after, like this: ~~~~. When you click [Save page], the tildes are automatically replaced with your signature (usually your username, or IP if you're not logged in) and the time and date of your post.

Ancient Japanese "Ōkimis" are generally called in posthumous names(Kanpu Shigo i.e. Chinese Style Namings), merely for convenience. Unfortunately, Nihongi shows no information on how those old monarchs were actually called in his ages. For instance, Nihongi records Yuryaku as "Ōhatsuse Wakatake Sumeramikoto", while swords unearthed from a couple of kofuns indicates his name "Wakatakeru Ōkimi". As we have no way to find accurate name from biblographies, it is rather convenient to use Kanpu Shigo which was invented in later ages, and therefore comes with the title "Tenno".

Other alternative is to use Wafu Shigo(i.e.Japanese Style posthumous names), but Wafu Shigo tend to be longer than Kanpu counterpart and seems inconvenient. "Kinmei Tenno" or "Kinmei" seems to be easier to refer than "Amekuni Oshiharaki Hironiwa Sumeramikoto". 218.225.251.145 16:24, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I would appreciate if all such names are mentioned and explained in the article of each of those. Shilkanni 18:35, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Traditional Dates

According to this article, Nintoku's reign was traditionally dated as beginning in 313, yet his father's reign was said to have ended in 310. What, according to the traditional dates, happened in that three-year interregnum? Nik42 01:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Based on the book We Japanese, written by H.S.K. Yamaguchi in the 1930's and reprinted in 1950 for the Fujiya Hotel in Hakone, Emperor Nintoku was born Prince Osasagi, the first son of Emperor Ohjin and older brother of Prince Wakairatsuko. Ohjin loved Wakairatsuko deeply and bestowed upon him the right of succession, thereby giving him precedence over his older brother Osasagi. When Ohjin died in 310, Wakairatsuko refused to appropriate his older brother's birthright and ceded the throne back to Osasagi, who in turn refused to cast aside their father's wishes. Thus for three years there was a stalemate, with each brother declining the right to accede to the throne and the court coming to a standstill. Yamaguchi recounts the story of a woman who came to court to pay her tribute in the form of fish; each brother successively refused to accept the tribute, telling the woman to go to his brother to offer it instead. In the end, after much back and forth, the fish went bad and the woman went away. Yamaguchi reports that the stalemate was broken when Wakairatsuko committed ritual suicide in order to eliminate himself from the succession, so that Osasagi would finally take his rightful place. Osasagi then became emperor in 313 under the name Nintoku.

Yamaguchi also reports that Emperor Nintoku was beloved for his compassionate decision to forgive taxes when he realized that his people were suffering hardship (which he noticed by looking upon the town one winter and seeing that few houses had smoke emerging from them). Three years later, he was looking upon the town once again and this time saw smoke coming from many houses. "We are happy now," he is reported to have said to his Empress, who replied: "How can you say that we are happy when the palace is in great disrepair and we ourselves lack so much?" And he is said to have responded: "Their happiness is our happiness. Now our people are in plenty, and now it is fair for us to ask taxes from them." According to Yamaguchi, people not only paid the taxes willingly but came in great numbers to repair the palace spontaneously. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.45.207 (talk) 18:37, 22 March 2008 (UTC)