User talk:Elyaqim

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[edit] Why just Arabic script?

I'm a little concerned that you're making a political statement by adding the Urdu version of Aamir Khan's name and not putting in the Devanagari as well. Perhaps you can either add the Devanagari or we can take out the Urdu?

Zora 00:22, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Do you know anyone who can write Devanagari?

Dear Elyaqim,

Just having Arabic script and not Devanagari is a political statement, intended or not. I'm NOT Indian; I'm just a fan of Bollywood movies. But after years of watching the movies and reading the news, I think I have a fair sense of what might offend. You probably didn't mean it this way at all, but I at first thought that the addition came from some BJP anti-Muslim activist, who was trying to make some point about the strong Muslim representation in the Bollywood industry. Yes, I've run into such people online.

Just as Bollywood movies usually have their titles in English, Arabic, and Devanagari script, if we're going to put Aamir's name into Arabic script, we should put it into Devanagari too. Or drop the Urdu.

As to the language that Aamir speaks -- I'd bet he's like a lot of upper-crust Indians and speaks English most of the time :)

Unfortunately, I only know a few words of Hindi and Urdu, and I certainly can't write in anything but English (or Tongan or French, but those won't help). Do you know anyone who can handle this? My one real-life Indian friend is Tamil and I don't know if he could do it, even if he had time.

I'd really rather handle this by an addition rather than a deletion.

Zora 00:22, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I must come to Zora's aid. Please do not get me wrong but it is not very appropriate to assume people speak a particular language. Let me just say Muslims in Gujarat speak Gujarati those in Tamil Nadu speak Tamil, yet they use names that sound Arabic. The second thing is this is the English Wikipedia. If you know Arabic I encourage you to write an article in Arabic Wikipedia. It will do speakers of Arabic good to have an article on Bollywood actors considering a lot of people watch Bollywood movies in the Middle East. In fact someone recently wrote the Indian national anthem in Bangla (which it is originally written in) in the Indian national anthem article. Now I can read Bangla (not write or speak) but I am unable to make sense of what is written there, I can not check its validity, simply because the Bangla Unicode fonts I have do not show anything. God knows what is written there. The point is a lot of people in English Wikipedia can not even understand another language, that is one reason why we do not use other languages every so often in Wikipedia. You can always edit (or start) an article in another language. Another thing Elyaqim in the future kindly use four tildes (~~~~) to sign. Thanks -Ankur 02:54, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I asked about this issue at the Village Pump and got the advice to move the whole discussion (and the Urdu script) to the discussion pages for the three articles you edited. That way you are not exactly censored, Elyaqim; anyone who chooses to look at the discussion will see what we both think. You might like to visit the discussion pages and add your comments.

Zora 08:30, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Female non-singers

Why are you putting Category:Female singers in the articles of actresses? (E.g. Thelma Ritter, Tallulah Bankhead) - Nunh-huh 06:23, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Adding Arabic and Devanagari to Bollywood actor articles

I've noticed that you've returned to adding Arabic AND Devanagari versions to the names of Muslim actors, and Devanagari versions to non-Muslims. This seems to me to be coding the articles, so that readers will know who's Muslim and who isn't. I don't think either version of the names is necessary. Can you convince me (and Merovingian, who's gotten involved) that the scripts are necessary? I don't see them in any of the Bollywood sites and news articles I read. I'm thinking right now that the script should be removed. Zora 8 July 2005 10:26 (UTC)

Hi, Elyaqim. I thought you were the same person as BernardM, who has been adding Devangari versions to film star names. His user page has something on it re "this is the name I use when ...".
Bernard had a good argument, which is that transliterations of Hindi often vary wildly. However, that seems to hold more for film titles than star names.
I understand that giving the original script is widespread in the English Wikipedia. I've been working on lots of Islamic articles, and they are acquiring more and more Arabic as time passes. I don't object.
The Hindi/Hindustani/Urdu case is special, in that there's a language continuum and the choice of scripts can be a political decision.
As I said on the Madhuri Dixit talk page, the older Bollywood movies have titles in Arabic and Devanagari scripts (unless they're Hindu mythologicals), and newer ones just have Devanagari. I suppose I might be willing to go with Devanagari script for filmstar names and film titles, especially since we don't have Arabic versions for the newer ones. If you would REMOVE the Arabic and leave the Devanagari on the three Khans, we could see if anyone objected. Zora 02:20, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
P.S. Adding Devanagari to the film titles would be much more useful, IMHO. Zora 02:21, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Don’t patronize me. (“If you would REMOVE the Arabic and leave the Devanagari on the three Khans, we could see if anyone objected.”) Your agenda seem quite clear now. Do you even realize you contradicted yourself in a single message? After having gone on at length that we need both scripts or neither (“the choice of scripts can be a political decision”), you then advocate my removal of the Arabic to leave only the Devanāgarī. Honey, I’m not a fool. (By the way, the opening credits of Dil se‥ has the title in all three scripts.) Elyaqim 04:56, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm dithering back and forth. I think it's a lot safer not to have scripts, but Bernard made a good argument for including them. But then choosing which ones to use is difficult. What do YOU think my agenda is? (I'm a Caucasian Buddhist living in Honolulu, and I like to watch Bollywood movies -- I speak neither Hindi nor Urdu -- that's my agenda so far as I know.) Why are you so upset? Zora 05:52, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

One agendum is clearly the complete eradication of Urdu from any Bollywood article. Your first excuse for censoring other people’s work is that the Arabic script should not be present without the Devanāgarī. After I dig up the Devanāgarī solely to appease you (because I cannot truly read it), you decide that it could stay or go, but we still cannot have the Urdu. (And you suggest I remove it, perhaps so you do not look so guilty.)

I was upset because you are ignoring any distinctions of right versus wrong, neutrality versus bias, accuracy versus inaccuracy, or any other considerations that might be warrented when creating an encyclopædic article, and instead focusing on whom you might “offend.” I was upset because you frequently warn of how my actions are political whether or not I intend them to be, that I might offend somebody whether or not I intend to, and then you exhibit a clearly anti-Muslim bias and wish to inflict it on a whole class of articles. I am not even a Muslim and yet you have offended me. And tell me: Who are these amorphous people you are somehow protecting from the “provocative” presence of Urdu? Who are the “rabble” you are accusing me of rousing? Why are their sensibilities so delicate and so worthy of protection that you yourself can offend Urdu-speaking culture in the process? You know, folk who live in glass houses….

I was upset because I now understand the Throne of the Almighty Ruler of Bollywood is curiously in Honolulu. All contributors need to convince you their additions are “necessary,” not “provocative,” that a particular culture is worthy of inclusion. Then you threaten censorship if you are not convinced. Each person should contribute what he or she knows, but you relegated the responsibility of finding the Devanāgarī to me, that I should not add the Arabic script without the Devanāgarī. So resolute were you that your word is law, you presumed I was BernardM because he was apparently doing what you had commanded me to do. (A better analogy might be the workplace, where each Wikipedian editing a Bollywood article needs to look over his or her shoulder to see if supervisor Zora is happy, and ultimately Zora has the final say to snip snip snip.)

I can read between the lines. I am a gay person with heritage of color, and this “mahu” knows what it means when a culture is officially removed from the public record so as not to “offend” people. Again, you may think you are not choosing sides, but you are clearly exhibiting an anti-Urdu bias, a bias that is not shown in Bollywood movies themselves, which use a lot of Urdu, show movie titles in Arabic script, and the producers of which frequently hire Muslim poets to write beautiful Urdu lyrics. Elyaqim 15:42, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I have an anti-Urdu bias? Huh? I usually get accused of being a crypto-Muslim. I don't see how someone who loves Mughal-e-Azam could have an anti-Urdu bias. There are LOTS of references in the Bollywood article to the importance of Urdu and Urdu poetry.
I don't think it's strange to worry about offending people, not when thousands of people are routinely massacred over questions just as trivial as what script to use for actors' names.
Look, my preference would be for leaving off ALL the Arabic and Devanagari for actors' names, which DO have standard transliterations into English. Perhaps it's needed for movie titles, where the transliterations do vary. If foreign script added, I would prefer it to be in both A and D. However -- YOU need to discuss this with BernardM, who is adding Devanagari-only to actors' names. You're accusing me of being a despot, when instead I'm trying to mediate between two people who aren't talking directly to each other. I would also prefer to get more input. Perhaps a Request for Comment? Yes, I'll do that. Zora 20:10, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

True and just speech should never be censured based on a perceived possibility of an ignorant backlash. When thousands of people are massacred, it is never over a trivial question. The trivial question is an excuse, a red herring, to react based on a hatred already present. If you think perhaps you are protecting Muslims from an ignorant backlash by exponging Urdu script from the Bollywood articles, you are instead doing them a great disservice. If we leave out the Urdu, the haters will look for (and find) some other excuse. Plus, I would think Muslims might prefer to be included in the public record rather than “protected” by you.

That you are “trying to mediate between two people who aren't talking directly to each other” could not be further from the truth, especially when you thought he and I were so aligned in ideology that we must be the same person. (“YOU need to discuss this with BernardM….” It seems more like an excuse to distance yourself from what you have done and plan to do, i. e., censorship.) I was thrilled to see Lata Mangeshkar’s name rendered in Devanāgarī script. I am pleased you informed me someone is finally adding these names in whatever script he can read. If I discuss anything with him, I will thank him for what he did, and congratulate him for providing the one piece of logic to actually penetrate your walls. And it is true: The Latin transliterations can only go so far without using obscure diacritics, so I love to see, for instance, the playback singers names rendered in Arabic script so I can see how they are genuinely pronounced, retroflex consonants and long vowels included. (This is particularly because the singers’ names are less often uttered on télévision or radio than the stars’.) It helps to familiarize me with Indo-Aryan names, rather than just the Arabic and Persian ones I know so well.

And if no one has yet been able to provide the Urdu, I shall plod through the Devanāgarī letter by letter because I have a working understanding of the South Asian scripts. I am an enthusiast of the writing systems of the world, not a zealot or fundamentalist, and I do not appreciate my work being censored because I am believed to be one. I see now (especially after perusing your personal talk page) your intentions are good, but I think your ignorance of the issues has led you to take a reactionary and censoring (and thus biased) stance. As far as I am aware, you are the only one offended by the presence of the Urdu and the only one who has complained. (We already discussed Ankur’s take on your crusade.) At least for the moment, the people you anticipate will rush into Wikipedia to massacre thousands are just phantoms.

By the way, where would I read the request for commentary and the resulting comments? Elyaqim 01:12, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

The Request for Comment is at WP:RFC and any resulting talk is directed to Talk:Bollywood. My suggestion there is that you and BernardM work together, since he can do the Devanagari and you can do the Urdu, IF there is a consensus in favor of adding the Indian versions of the names. I'm sorry, I should have come back and directed you to the talk page. Perhaps I was being timid, which is not right OK it comes to doing the right thing. Zora 01:29, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Yiddish Wikipedia

Hi Elyaqim. As a Yiddish speaker, you might be interested in my half-baked plan to revitalize the moribund (only 121 articles) Yiddish Wikipedia. Please see my idea at Talk:Yiddish_language#Yiddish_Wikipedia, and thanks.--Pharos 05:10, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Jewish culture

Hi Elyaqim, I was wondering whether you were interested in joining and developing a new WikiProject. While the more-established WikiProject Judaism focuses on relgious aspects of Judaism, this project intends to look at Jewish literature, music, theater, language and history, among other aspects of culture. If you are interested in helping to edit and review these articles, please join! jnothman talk 06:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Radhanite

This FAC is being opposed by a POV pusher who has consistantly tried to downplay Jewish contributions to history (while simultaneously shrugging off or sweeping under the rug Muslim atrocities against Jews and others, see, e.g., al-Andalus and Banu Qurayza). Please review the article when you are able and weigh in on the FAC page, or not, as you feel appropriate. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 05:56, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] ‎"‎װיקיפּעדיע‎"‎ and ‎"‎װיקיביבליאָטעק‎‎"‎

[edit] June Meetup in New York

Hi, Elyaqim, I noticed you are a New Yorker. If you are interested in coming to a meeting of Wikipedians take a peek at this and please tell any other Wikipedians that you think might be interested in participating about this event. Thanks. Alex756 02:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vote request

Please Vote, as per wiktionary the correct spelling is Wiktionary:anti-Semitic NOT Antisemitic. 67.70.68.51 12:30, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia New York Meet-Up

Howdy! Please come to the First Annual New York Wikipedian Central Park Picnic. R.S.V.P. @ Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC --David Shankbone 22:49, 12 June 2007 (UTC)