Talk:Electrum

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Contents

[edit] Egyptian Usage

There was an omission in the article regarding Ancient Egyptian uses of Electrum. The Ancient Egyptians also used Electrum to make the Pharaoh's war helmets. Also, Electrum was highly prized in Egypt because silver was scarce, however it never became more popular than Gold, which was the holy metal.
Herb143 (talk) 01:01, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Absurd figures

  • A 'stater' was worth 168 grains of wheat, or around one month's pay for a soldier.

That's patently absurd. 168 grains of wheat must be about enough to make a few crumbs of bread. Soldiers might have lived on less food back then but I doubt that they survived on a few crumbs a month, nor that those few crumbs cost a half-ounce of precious metal.

I'm guessing that the actual fact is something completely different, such as: "a stater weighed the same as 168 grains of wheat," or "a stater was worth about 168 pounds of wheat," or whatever. But I don't know what the fact is, so I'm just going to delete the entire comparison to wheat for now, because as it stands it's utter bosh. Could whoever put it there to begin with, or someone else, look up the actual fact and put it in, preferably with a citation?


[edit] First Used

The article had been changed to state:

  • Electrum is believed to have been first used in coins circa 700 BC in Lydia under the reign of Alyattes II.

However, our own page on Alyattes states:

Obviously, there is an error here.

With all the mirroring of Wikipedia, it's somewhat difficult to find a reliable source online, however keeping that in mind: Encarta: Coins and Coin Collecting quotes the origins as being between 620BC and 600BC.

I'm switching it back to "circa 600 BC"

(Done by User MinstrelOfC - note that I am not logged in due to technical issues)

66.82.9.53 21:33, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Does everything here belong in Electrum?

I've noticed that the entire "History" section deals only with Electrum as it was used in coinage.

It might be an idea to split the article into "Electrum" and "Electrum Coinage", maybe add a note at the top that this article deals only with naturally occuring Electrum.

Anyone agree?

PS: I found an interesting article that could be useful to someone making a full "Electrum Coinage" page - Google HTML-ized version of a PDF entitled: "The Electrum Coinage of Samos in the Light of a Recent Hoard"

(Done by User MinstrelOfC - note that I am not logged in due to technical issues)

66.82.9.53 22:03, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

In 1903 Hobart at the Temple of Artemis in Ephesus excavated a find of 93 electrum coins known as the Artemission find. 19 of these early electrum coins were found inside a common pottery vessel dating to 650-625 BC. Invention of coinage is traditionally dated to 700 BC, and attributed by Herodotus to the Lydians. Modern archaeologists prefer 600 BC but this is thought unlikely by numismatic electrum specialists. Coinage likely is invented in Lydia and Ionia around 670 BC. Electrum was regarded a seperate metal to gold and silver. The coins were accepted by denominational value rather than bullion content, their worth guaranteed by royal authority. Electrum varies in gold content 85% to 35%. Dr Konuk notes early Samian coins of the same dies but with widely different bullion content. The substantive Lydian trite issues of Alyattes are issued at 55% gold. The trade coinages of Kyzikos and Phokaia, and later Lesbos, are issued around 45% gold. These coinages end with the monetary reforms of Alexander the Great and his empire. (Joe Linzalone, Wolfshead Galery)

Lydian coinage begins under Gyges, 680-645 BC, founder of the Mermnadae dynasty. The Electrum coins circulated as true coinage with value guaranteed on royal authority without reference to bullion content, which varies in natural electrum. Alyattes (Walwetes in Lydian) issued the famous Lion electrum coinage, known then as Walwi, meaning Lion and referring to the type as well as the king's name. This was likely issued to pay the Lydian mercenary army for his wars of conquest. On rare issues of this coinage his name "Walwet" is engraved before the Lion's face. These early coins (c. 600 BC) are the first time a king puts his name on a coin.(Joe Linzalone, Wolfshead Galery)

[edit] Coin dating

The above information about the dating of Lydian electrum coinage, that it was initiated under Gyges c. 680-645 BC, is a century old, and outdated. Specifically, this dating was popularized by Barclay Head, author of among other notable books Historia Numorum, published in its final edition in 1911. It is correct that modern archeologists prefer the c. 600 BC dating for these coins because the archeological evidence argues for it. Numismatists also prefer this dating because the numismatic evidence argues for it as well.

Reidgold 02:16, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alyattes' name

The name "Alyattes II" is in all likelihood incorrect. Wikipedia uses "Alyattes II," based on the 1911 edition of Encyclopaedia Britannica, as does John Lempriere's 1788 Classical Dictionary (Biblioteca Classica). These references rely heavily on ancient epigraphs, which are lists of kings on clay tablets and other media. Epigraphic lists, however, are known by historians today to be generally unreliable as historical documents. For one thing, they sometimes combine kings from different regions. Livio C. Stecchini contended, for instance, that Gyges was the first Lydian king and those before him, including the earlier Alyattes, were kings of nearby Maionia, a Phrygia dependency. What's more, epigraphic lists are often legendary rather than annalistic, including as they do, for instance, the mythic hero Herakles as a city's founder, so another possibility is that "Alyattes I" was a legendary rather than a historical figure.

The ancient historians Herodotos and Strabo both refer to Kroisos' father as Alyattes and make no mention of an earlier King Alyattes of Lydia in their writings on Lydia. The same is true of modern historians, archeologists, and numismatists who have focused on Lydia, including George M.A. Hanfmann, Robert W. Wallace, Koray Konuk, and Andrew Ramage. Likewise, other newer sources such as recent editions of Oxford Classical Dictionary and Encyclopaedia Britannica don't use "Alyattes II" and make no mention of an earlier Lydian king named Alyattes.

Reidgold 02:03, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Noted error of specific data.

Insertformulahere In the player's handbook 2nd edition of AD&D on page 35 it clearly states;

20 silver pieces (s.p.) = 1 gold piece (g.p.) 2 electrium pieces (e.p.) = 1 g.p.

so the exact statement should read that 1 ep = 10 sp.

thank you, Rachael S. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.254.189.12 (talk) 05:00, 8 April 2007 (UTC).