User talk:EC2
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[edit] Braves Field
I wonder if you're going to get hassled about the alleged lack of "notability" of the different dimensions, as I did with the Yankee Stadium article. The Braves Field situation is not as complicated as it seems. I'll look into this more, after work today. Wahkeenah 20:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- I think the lack of attention paid to Braves Field is one reason the info on it is sketchy and contradictory. It's really unfortunate. It was arguably a much better facility than Fenway Park, but it was opened the year after the Braves' miracle of 1914 and the Braves were losers for most of the next 40 years before moving to Milwaukee. It's kind of nifty that part of it still survives as Nickerson Field. I've never been there, but I gather that they took some pains to preserve the concourse, as kind of a living monument to its baseball past, while still being a state-of-the-art facility for Boston U. otherwise. Wahkeenah 22:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- It turns I don't have time to give this full attention tonight. This is more like a weekend project. I'll give you the rundown, and you can think about potential impact on the article. Part of the problem with all those numbers is that Phil Lowry's books on the subject are based on various public sources, which were and are often contradictory. He was reporting what the books were reporting, but that does not necessarily mean the numbers actually changed. That's one problem. Another is what the Braves did with their ballfield. Initially it was apparently 402 from home plate down each line and apparently up along the bleacher railing to the outer wall. That was not an unknown practice then. However, it wasn't really 402 to right, that was the distance down the runway between the end of the pavilion and the edge of the "jury box" bleachers. The true distance was more like 350 or 375. But there is still some dispute as to whether that runway was sealed off or if a ball could go in there and be in play. In any case, it was a monstrous 550 or so to the deepest right-center-field corner of the outer wall. During the 1920s, to take advantage of the game's switch from dead-ball to live-ball, bleachers were built across the outfield to shorten the distance. The composite photo of Braves and Nickerson shows one version of those bleachers. Those bleachers came and went a few times, apparently, because the Braves were such a poor team that the visiting teams benefited more. Eventually, the bleachers were abandoned and a somewhat closer but much higher fence was built around the outfield, resulting in the final dimensions of 337-390-319 or some such. In the interim, they had done a slightly strange thing, by relocating the diamond. The tilted it a few degrees clockwise, so the left field line no longer touched the left field corner wall, but the right field line intersected the right field pavilion at something under 300 feet. In the park's only All-Star Game, 1935 or some such, Augie Galan hit a homer off that foul pole. The Braves then blasted out a triangular section which resulted in a foul line of about 340. They later put up an inner fence to bring it in to 319. That triangular notch was filled in by Boston University when they converted the field in 1955. OK, any questions? Wahkeenah 01:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
- Phil Lowry was the first to comprehensively record the history of dimensions and other detailed info, and nearly every source since then has built on his work. To get back towards more original sources is a challenge. It requires doing what Lowry apparent did: digging through old baseball guides, World Almanacs (which are questionable sources), and newspaper archives. That's tedious stuff, and is the reason the subject, while broadly researched, may not be deeply researched enough. One problem is mistakes made by the teams themselves, even after they started posting distances. Perhaps the most obvious example to those who follow this subject is when the Red Sox put up a "310" sign in the left field corner after having had it at "315" for many decades. The wall didn't move five feet closer, they just re-measured it and said "Oops!" A better-known stadium like Yankee Stadium or the Polo Grounds is rather easier to document because of higher visibility and frequent post-season appearances, plus they didn't change very much. The Braves messed with their dimensions several times, and because the team was so lousy they were pretty much "under the radar". I know a little more about Braves Field than I would have, thanks to some correspondence I had with some guy a few years ago who was studying the matter in depth, but he never published his work and has since died, so that doesn't work as a "verifiable" source. Wahkeenah 02:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
- It turns I don't have time to give this full attention tonight. This is more like a weekend project. I'll give you the rundown, and you can think about potential impact on the article. Part of the problem with all those numbers is that Phil Lowry's books on the subject are based on various public sources, which were and are often contradictory. He was reporting what the books were reporting, but that does not necessarily mean the numbers actually changed. That's one problem. Another is what the Braves did with their ballfield. Initially it was apparently 402 from home plate down each line and apparently up along the bleacher railing to the outer wall. That was not an unknown practice then. However, it wasn't really 402 to right, that was the distance down the runway between the end of the pavilion and the edge of the "jury box" bleachers. The true distance was more like 350 or 375. But there is still some dispute as to whether that runway was sealed off or if a ball could go in there and be in play. In any case, it was a monstrous 550 or so to the deepest right-center-field corner of the outer wall. During the 1920s, to take advantage of the game's switch from dead-ball to live-ball, bleachers were built across the outfield to shorten the distance. The composite photo of Braves and Nickerson shows one version of those bleachers. Those bleachers came and went a few times, apparently, because the Braves were such a poor team that the visiting teams benefited more. Eventually, the bleachers were abandoned and a somewhat closer but much higher fence was built around the outfield, resulting in the final dimensions of 337-390-319 or some such. In the interim, they had done a slightly strange thing, by relocating the diamond. The tilted it a few degrees clockwise, so the left field line no longer touched the left field corner wall, but the right field line intersected the right field pavilion at something under 300 feet. In the park's only All-Star Game, 1935 or some such, Augie Galan hit a homer off that foul pole. The Braves then blasted out a triangular section which resulted in a foul line of about 340. They later put up an inner fence to bring it in to 319. That triangular notch was filled in by Boston University when they converted the field in 1955. OK, any questions? Wahkeenah 01:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Here's what I found in old baseball guides, and you can see what this research is up against. The All-Star Game was 1936, and other sources told me it was less than 300 to right, but I can't put my hands on them just now. The photos in the 1942 guide presumably would have been taken the previous year, so the "missing" 1941 is probably the same as 1942. 1942 also looks like an estimate. I suspect 1941-42 were really the same as 1943-45, but that would be another guess. However, it looks like the bleachers disappeared in favor of the high inner fence around 1941. It also looks like the inner right field fence came in for the 1946 season, so that would be the year of the "final" dimensions:
SPORTING NEWS RECORD BOOKS
- 1934-35 369-417-364
- 1936 368-426-364
- 1937-40 368-407-376
- 1941 missing
- 1942 350-365-390-401-362-350 (photos show high lf-cf - no rf inner fence)
- 1943-45 340-365-370-390-355-340
- 1946 337-365-370-390-355-320
- 1947-1952 337-390-320
WHO'S WHO IN THE MAJOR LEAGUES
- 1940-47 368-408-378
- 1948-52 337-390-319 <<< This is verifiably correct based on photos
Wahkeenah 03:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Jct template and US 151
I put in a request to have {{jct}} fixed to better support WI 3d US shields and banners after a CTH. The template is too difficult to fix ourselves — master sonT - C 17:44, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- Its fixed now — master sonT - C 00:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
