Talk:Ebroin

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[edit] Bum rap?

I can't help but see Ebroin as the Neustrian predecessor of Charles Martel.

How bad was Ebroin really? The Historiae Francorum didn't like him, because he was a Neustrian and not a Pippinid. The Burgundians didn't like him, because he (like Joan of Arc) hampered their ambitions. And he annoyed the Church.

I think that there has been a lot of PoV thrown at him. He was just a Neustrian noble, chosen by Neustrian nobles to represent their interests: and not the interests of the mayors of Austrasia, the English, the Burgundians, the Byzantines, and the Church. We're not dealing with a Napoleon here.

And I'm not understanding how Leodegar was much better; he too was following Burgundian interests at the expense of Neustria and Austrasia both - not to mention using the Church for his "crusade" (if that's not too anachronistic). -- Zimriel 02:09, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know how bad Ebroin really was. Never met him. However, I think your interpretation of the Gesta Francorum, or Liber Historiae Francorum, is backwards. It is written from a Neustrian perspective, a fact I just referenced when I added it in a major expansion of the Neustria article. Srnec 04:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your catch on the Liber being Neustrian. I confess, my Austrasian comment was guesswork on my part. I'd only photocopied chs. 42-45 when I was doing research on the plagues of the 660s-80s; given the highly cavalier treatment it delivered to the period 652-673 as a whole (which was so bad that it actually offended me), and given a previous commenter's reference to "Carolingian propaganda", I chose to clarify that reference such that this part of the Liber was written from the Pippinid court. I suppose it also induced me to give Ebroin some benefit of the doubt.

-- Zimriel 19:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The commander of the invasion

That said, your request at Grimoald I of Benevento for a citation of Ebroin leading an army into Italy sent me searching my library. I found nothing in Oman, Hodgkin, Paul the Deacon, or Wallace-Hadrill. I don't know where I got that from. I did notice that Hodgkin records that one of Grimoald's last royal acts was to conclude a treaty of peace with the Franks, which he assumes was negotiated by Ebroin. Anyways, I think that if the Liber is opposed to Ebroin, and there is little good said of him in Fredegar, he was probably a bad guy. That said, good catch at the Grimoald article. Srnec 04:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)