Talk:Earth

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[edit] Spinning globe

The new picture of a spinning globe is nice, but spinning way too fast. Now it's about one revolution per 2.5 seconds. Would look much better at once per 15 seconds (or more). −Woodstone (talk) 14:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Of these two images I actually prefer the original (left):

Original image

Replacement image
The background provides a stable context for the image. The globe at right seems disturbing to watch as it is less smooth.—RJH (talk) 14:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Okay -- thanks for the feedback!
I was originally going to do one above the "dawn-line" (at equinox), with the dark-side using NASA's "night lights" images.
In any case, I'll see if I can slow it down, keep some sky, work on the aesthetic, etc...
Wikiscient 15:22, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Slower please - I feel ill. Also, there may not be a simple and intuitive way of representing the dark and light faces of the globe in the same animation. Creating them separately might be an idea if it's easy enough to do. Cheers, --Plumbago (talk) 15:39, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Good point. The globe at left also provides some depth by including part of the shadow. The one on the right looks flat.—RJH (talk) 15:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
BTW, it's just that the one on the left (the original) seems so lacking in detail -- blurry, too dark, too much glare off the Sahara, etc.
Considering the size/resolution of NASA's "Visual Earth" images (on which both are based), it just seemed a shame to have to lose so much information to make a smooth animation gif with a reasonable (ie."Photoshop-acceptable") overall size...
I hear ya, though! Wikiscient 15:45, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
There is also a consideration of trade-off between detail and size. If there is too much detail, people will have issues trying to download the page because of the huge file. So it's a question of just what we're trying to show. Right now it just gives a general impression of rotation direction, an overall shape and a high-level view of the continents. Yes the image at right does have some positives, including the southern ice cap. But I also see some odd light blue patches that I can't quite make out because it's rotating so fast.—RJH (talk) 22:07, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


Just to be clear about the detail (eg. so that you can see that the light-blue areas represent shallower water) and so forth:

Image:Globespin persec.gif

I've reduced the frame advance rate to one/sec (there are 24 frames, so that's "one hour/sec").
To get a "smooth" animation at a comparable spin rate, I'd need to have three or four times as many frames, so to keep the file size manageable I'd have to reduce the quality and/or dimensions down to that of the "original" (above).
But there does not seem to be much need for me to put much more work into this -- though I do think something incorporating a "lights at night" image would be neat, too!
Also btw the (unanimated & "flat") NASA images are available here.
Regards, Wikiscient 09:21, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry then, but that just doesn't work for me. It just isn't sufficiently smooth compared to the original and it provides no sense of depth.—RJH (talk) 15:30, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes: no, of course I am not proposing it as a replacement anymore...
Just slowed the frame advance to show what would be nice, IF it could be both smoothly animated and as detailed...
Will let you know if I come up with some brilliant innovation that way, otherwise...
Cheers,
Wikiscient 05:07, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm with RJH about the smoothness, but I've another question too. The NASA links that you provided above seem to show a globe where the Antarctic Peninsula is clearly visible. On the globe above it seems to be obscured by seasonal sea-ice. Any chance of using a sea-ice-free globe at your next iteration? It's perhaps not as realistic (since there's always some sea-ice), but at the moment the globe appears to show a strange composite of seasons. And, given global warming, cutting out the sea-ice makes your globe future-proof!  ;-)
On another unrelated note, the light blue regions on the globe may not be denoting shallow water but might simply be recording actual ocean colour. In shallow water regions, chlorophyll (and sediments, etc.) can create a strong signal, and the deep water regions of the globe show a palette that is independent of their depth (c.f. the brighter regions of the Southern Ocean). Anyway, that shouldn't affect your (sterling and much appreciated) plotting efforts, but when you label up the resulting globe you might want to explain the brighter blues that way. Cheers, --Plumbago (talk) 07:46, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] It might sound absurd

I know it might sound absurd but the Infobox Planet for Earth should or, most probably, it must contain an information about the human population. I wanted to know what is the human population on earth and I thought I could find it at the Earth's infobox but I did not. I never thougt to look at the World population article. Only after, I found out where it is. But I think that some people that had the same question as me, have searched the info on the Earth article. Anyway, it's a good idea to do a new section at the infobox, maybe with all the three values:

  • 6,671,226,000 - 2007
  • 7 bilion - predicted for 2013
  • 9.2 billion - predicted for 2050

Tuloc (talk) 14:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

If there is interest in this, my suggestion is to use a separate infobox for the population, then place them both at the top and use {{FixBunching}}. If the box is displayed contracted, it could list multiple population stats for both past and future without impacting the page layout.—RJH (talk) 15:00, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Earth-related topics

Placing the "Earth-related topics" infobox at the bottom has resulted in several attempts to create a redundant "See also" section. Should we:

  1. Accept the redundancy between the two?
  2. Move the contents of the "Earth-related topics" infobox back under "See also" and scrap the infobox?
  3. Move the infobox back under the "See also" section header?
  4. Keep deleting attempts to create a redundant "See also" section?

Thanks.—RJH (talk) 20:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

How about leave an HTML note in the last section of the article telling people to make sure they check the infobox at the bottom of the article prior to creating a See also section? That will probably discourage many of the people wanting to create the section. --Bobblehead (rants) 20:32, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
That might work: perhaps a single link under a "See also" section that points to the "Earth-related topics" infobox. Thus: Earth-related topics.—RJH (talk) 23:58, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I think having the infobox expanded by default would also help; I didn't even notice it until I saw the edit summaries mentioning it's existence. An HTML comment isn't a bad idea, but it doesn't help readers. ASHill (talk | contribs) 21:41, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately I think the standard is to have it contracted. Plus it is inevitable that somebody will come along and contract it again.—RJH (talk) 23:58, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay here's my thinking behind that section: I agree with the concerns about having a "See also" section too cluttered with too many links and making the navigation/info box at the bottom is a good idea. The problem with that is many users won't notice that navigation box and I'm sure many users find see also sections useful. The four links I added are all articles that contain a list of a lot more articles which is kind of like putting a navigation box (but more comprehensive) into one link. I think perhaps an article could be started titled "List of Earth-related topics" or "List of basic planet Earth topics" or something like that and all those topics in the navigation box could be listed in that article plus any other topics that are Earth-related. The only problem with that is it would share a lot of the same articles in the "List of Earth science topics" but that's not such a big deal. Then we could add that new link into the see also section and it would be like putting that navigation box there as you suggested. If people like this idea I could start making that article when I have the time or anyone else that's interested could. LonelyMarble (talk) 21:45, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Other uses statement

I know this has been discussed before, but I'd like to make sure this is a satisfactory consensus as the "other uses" section at the top is still undergoing occasional revisionism. Which of the following is preferred for the "other uses" statement?

This (1):

This article is about scientific information on the Earth as a planet. For the Earth's geography, see World. For other uses, see Earth (disambiguation).

or (2):

This article is about scientific information on the Earth. For the Earth's geography, see World. For religious beliefs, see creation myth. For other uses, see Earth (disambiguation).

or (3):

This article is about Earth as a planet. For the Earth's geography, see World. For other uses, see Earth (disambiguation).
This article focuses on scientific information about the Earth. For religious beliefs about the Earth, see creation myth.

Thanks.—RJH (talk) 22:12, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I like the first one the best, you can see my reasons behind this choice in the section below. Or if people don't like the use of scientific information like had been discussed in an old archive then this statement is fine too:
This article is about the Earth as a planet. For the Earth's geography, see World. For other uses, see Earth (disambiguation).
Note that this wording is what the article had for many months without complaint until only little over a month ago, and I much prefer it than the current one.LonelyMarble (talk) 22:17, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I thought of another option. If you really think the creation myth link is helpful why don't we put it at the top of the History section as a see also. One of the things that bugs me with it being at the top is it seems really out of place but if it was under the history section at least it would be in a more appropriate spot. LonelyMarble (talk) 19:29, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Okay this is what I think the hatnote should be:
This article is about the planet. For the Earth's geography, see World. For other uses, see Earth (disambiguation).
It is succinct, stardardized with the other planet hatnotes, and in the spirit of what a hatnote is, a navigation and clarification tool. If people insist on linking creation myth then it should be linked under the history section, it has no place in the top hatnote. LonelyMarble (talk) 23:32, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I much prefer (2), as the topic of Earth's creation is a frequent subject for discussion on this talk page. I certainly don't see how it is out of place at the top, since the whole point of the note is to quickly redirect traffic. Hence, at present, we don't have a consensus. Does anybody else have an opinion on the matter? Thanks.—RJH (talk) 23:55, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Hatnotes are for very specific things, they are primarily for navigation, which is why we link to Earth (disambiguation), and they are also for clarification which is why we link to World. Settling POV disputes and other stuff has abosolutely no places in hatnotes. No one searches for "Earth" if they want to know about creation myths or religious beliefs about Earth. It is also not necessary to mention anything about science in the hatnote. It is for navigation and clarification and nothing else. Including anything else would definitely be non-neutral in my opinion. LonelyMarble (talk) 00:02, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Clearly the link is not going to settle anybody's opinion on the formation of the Earth, so I completely disagree with your conclusion. It is quite clear to me that the link is not going to change anybody's opinion on the formation of the Earth. To believe so is absurd. However, it is also clear that the religious aspects of the creation of the Earth is relevant to many visitors. So the link is appropriate.—RJH (talk) 00:21, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I understand what you are saying but top hatnotes are for specific purposes. They are for people that search for "Earth" but don't want this article, which is why we are linking to Earth (disambiguation) and World. No one searches for "Earth" and expects to go to the "creation myths" article. You don't agree this link would be much more appropriate under the history section as a see also? This is the only section it would be relevant under other than the religious beliefs section where it's already linked, which is why I completely deleted it in the first place. This seems like clear case of WP:Undue weight to me. For a random example: why don't we mention "soil" at the top hatnote too because I assume people that search for "Earth" are far more likely to want the article "soil" than the article "creation myth", which is the sole purpose of the hatnote. LonelyMarble (talk) 00:31, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Based upon Wikipedia:Hatnote, I accept your logic. I also believe that the statement, "For the Earth's geography, see World," falls under the category of "Linking to articles that are highly related to the topic", and so should be removed. In that case the note should approximately read, "This is about scientific information on the planet Earth. For other uses, see Earth (disambiguation)."—RJH (talk) 17:33, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
That's a good point. World does not need to be there either and it is linked in the first paragraph anyway. I will link "world" as a main article under human geography, which I'll do now, to help navigation. I agree that the top hatnote should be - {{about|scientific information on the planet Earth}} which will read
This page is about scientific information on the planet Earth. For other uses, see Earth (disambiguation).
When I was reading through recent archives I noticed this discussion: Talk:Earth/Archive 8#"This article is about..." proposal, where two people objected to the use of "science" in the hatnote but I agree with what you said, the whole article is about scientific information and clarifying that in the hatnote is one of the uses of a hatnote so I have no problem using it. My argument on this issue was pretty much just based on the policies at Wikipedia:Hatnote because hatnotes are not technically part of article content so they should be as succinct and neutral as possible. So if you are in agreement you can change the hatnote to the above one. LonelyMarble (talk) 15:32, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree, and I made the change suggested by RJH. ASHill (talk | contribs) 16:15, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Scientific information wording

I feel that the "scientific information" wording is inappropriate. I, without having seen this discussion, changed the hatnote to read

This page is about the planet. For other uses, see Earth (disambiguation).

In my opinion, we should not present more than this in the hatnote. If "scientific" refers to the natural sciences, then it is factually inaccurate as the "Cultural viewpoint" section and parts of the "Human geography" section refer not to natural sciences, but to social sciences. If "scientific" refers to the union of both hard and soft sciences, then it refers primarily to academic work and is redundant given that as Wikipedia is meant to be verifiable, the article should be using academic sources regardless.
I am similarly concerned that the wording is being used as a subtle disclaimer against creationists; while they are certainly annoying in multiple ways (the real concern being POV-pushing), this is not an excuse to include something in the article as a deterrent. Problematic additions can be reverted, and the authors of such additions educated about our neutral point of view. The neutral point of view issue is another problem that I have with the current wording of the hatnote. While I am agnostic and oppose dogma, it is equally important for the sake of NPOV that we not push our own views. It occurs to me that presenting the article as being composed of "scientific information" at very least implies a particular, science-favouring point of view – should not such implications be avoided? Nihiltres{t.l} 22:10, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

In a certain respect, the use of "scientific knowledge" in this case is being used as a disambiguation, so as to clarify the purpose of the article. Obviously the article does not cover all aspects of the planet (which is a massive subject incorporating art, religion, philosophy, etc.), and so a very broad statement like "This is about the planet" is, in fact, unhelpful. By clarifying the scope of the article, the "hat-note" serves its purpose. If the use of the term "scientific knowledge" is indeed the problem, then what may be considered non-scientific aspects of the article could be readily relocated. The article is fairly massive as is, so a little judicious relocation may be in order. I would have no issue with relocating the cultural section to another page, and I have been contemplating just that once the section grew sufficiently large.—RJH (talk) 22:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I changed this myself a few days ago without realising there was a discussion going on about it (sorry, I thought it was a fairly minor change). I agree with Nihiltres' rationale, and I think the best solution would be to just remove the two words from the hatnote. After all, if people really wanted to know about art on Earth, I can't imagine they would waste their time looking up the Earth article, and similarly for the other topics you mentioned. We don't bother including a similar disambig for all other scientific articles, and I don't see why we should be making an exception here. I do think that moving the cultural stuff to a new article (and leaving a see also link at the bottom of the page) is a good idea, provided others agree, and would be sufficient to deal with such non-scientific information contradicting the hatnote .. but I'd still feel scientific information was unnecessary. Ben (talk) 05:39, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
In the case of the hatnote, I'm neutral right now about whether "scientific information" should be in it or not, I'm not sure what the best wording is. However, about the culture section, I think it should be kept in. It is not that long and seems to me an important enough topic about "Earth" that it should be summarized in the article for a full scope of the subject. It's not like that section is singled out to Earth either, other of the planets have culture sections as well. And the study of culture is absolutely a scientific discipline, there's nothing in the article that's not scientific as it's all facts, facts about different beliefs is part of cultural anthropology as RJHall has said. LonelyMarble (talk) 15:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
If it becomes the consensus to remove "scientific information" from the note, then I guess I'll accept it. However, a thought I had was to consider changing it to "physical properties", which would give the page a tighter focus and shrink the size down a bit. But that would mean moving the culture and geography sections to other pages.—RJH (talk) 14:57, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
physical properties sounds like we're stating the obvious don't you think? With the hatnote saying this is about the planet, a link to the disambiguation, the see also section at the bottom and even the table of contents to a degree, I think we're covered - at least to the point that scientific information and physical properties aren't going to clarify things or help anyone any more than what these things do. I don't feel that strongly about it though if you really want it to stay there. Ben (talk) 02:53, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
By the same token, it is also blindingly obvious to say that the article is about "the planet". If the reader has not yet read the article, then it is not obvious that it would be about the physical properties (as opposed to culture, geography, history, art, mythology, &c.).—RJH (talk) 17:50, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Leading with "This article is about the planet." is just a very quick clarification of what this article is about for someone searching for "Earth" but who did not want this article. That person could have been searching for a book named Earth, a song named "Earth", or anything else as listed at the disambiguation page we direct them to, where the article title for it could legitimately be simply "Earth". The hatnote does not need to clarify what exactly the article is about except for the most basic terms; it should be the job of the lead paragraphs to summarize and clarify what this article is exactly about. The lead paragraphs should, and I think do, make it obvious this article is about scientific information, and a look at the table of contents should make it clear it's mostly about physical properties. I also don't think this article needs too narrow and specific a description or needs to cut out any sections at the moment, like the culture or human geography sections. The article is not overly large in size (it's 98 KB in total size but only about 44 KB of that is readable prose), so I don't think there is a big need to cut its length. To conclude: for a succinct and neutral hatnote which is just there for navigation, this is probably the best wording: "This article is about the planet. For other uses, see Earth (disambiguation). LonelyMarble (talk) 21:02, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Fair enough; at three to one that seems to be close to a consensus and there are no other objecting voices. I remove my opposition, although, for the record, I don't think the change is necessary or beneficial.—RJH (talk) 22:14, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
But the argument can be made that having "scientific information" is not necessary because it is redundant as Nihiltres said in the first post. And it is beneficial to remove so as to be succinct and neutral. I think anyone searching for creationism should know enough to search for creationism and not Earth. Editors that put in creationist weasel words in this article can simply be reverted for adding non-veriable information and weasel words. And I think it's pretty obvious these editors already know this article is about scientific information; my guess is editors with that POV are going to make those kinds of edits whether the hatnote dissuades it or not. LonelyMarble (talk) 22:36, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Well I disagree and I thought that was made clear. Enough said.—22:52, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I didn't mean to harp on it, and I know you disagree. I just didn't want you to be annoyed about the decision, but you're right, there's nothing more to say except for repeating ourselves. LonelyMarble (talk) 23:15, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Request for MPH addition

A little ORBITAL CHARACTERISTICS addition for us simple people ? We're also orbiting Sol at 66,622.17 mph . . . —Preceding unsigned comment added by PFSLAKES1 (talk • contribs) 01:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I think we're following the convention on scientific articles from Wikipedia:MoS#Conversions just to use metric. But it'd be nice if there were a mouse-over feature for unit conversions.—RJH (talk) 17:42, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Inconsistent density

Under Physical Characteristics the Earth's density is given as 5.5153 g/cm³. But right above it the mass is given as 5.9736 and the volume as 1.0832073 in the appropriate units. Given that 5.9736/1.0832073 = 5.5147, how was 5.5153 determined and why is it different? It's not a big difference, but I don't see why there should be any difference. --Vaughan Pratt (talk) 04:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

It looks like you've found one of the reasons that the infobox parameters should all be cited. Yoder (1995) gives:
  • mass = 5.9736 × 1024 kg
  • volume = 1.08321 × 1012 km
  • density = 5.515 g cm-3
These values are self-consistent, and they also match the "Earth Fact Sheet" values. I have no idea where the current values came from.—RJH (talk) 15:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Average elevation of land

The source for "The mean height of land above sea level is 686 m" is an 1892 article, which cites its source as an 1888 article. An estimate I've seen in various places is 840 m, anyone have a trustworthy (and relatively recent) source for this quantity? --Vaughan Pratt (talk) 05:04, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a source for the more recent estimate? it doesn't seem to be readily available.—RJH (talk) 14:57, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I found this, but I have no idea how reliable it is (and it doesn't give any references). Ben (talk) 13:54, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Maybe this is better? Ben (talk) 14:03, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. From that I was able to back-track to an authoritative source:
On p. 19 it lists the mean land elevation of 840 m and the mean ocean depth of 3800 m. Those values come from an even older source: Kossina, Erwin (1921) "Die Tiefen des Weltmerres". So even this is pretty dated material. .—RJH (talk) 15:03, 13 June 2008 (UTC)