Talk:Dune (novel)/Archive 2

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This archive covers discussion from 2006. Discussion was placed in this archive as it appeared in the main talk page and thus may not be in chronological order.

Talk archives for Dune (novel) (current talk page)
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Contents

Specific quote about Dune

I distinctly and specifically remember reading a quote or article that said Frank Herbert's conception of the story of Dune finished with God Emperor of Dune. Am I making this up or can someone verify this for me? Matrixfusion 03:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


Famous lines

This will be incorporated into the article as soon as it is matured.

  • 'Father, the Sleeper has awakened'. -Paul Atreides upon mastering the ride on the worm.

I think one of the units in Warcraft 3 sais 'the sleeper has awakened' right after it is built. (Druid?) Bertus 12:11, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

  • 'Mood? What has mood got to do with it? Mood is for cows,or for love or playing the balisset. Mood is not for fighting." - counsel of Gurey HAlleck to young Paul who did not want to practice knife fighting by saying he wasn't in the mood for it.
  • The spice must flow' -Guild navigator issuing instructions to the Emperor
  • 'He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing' -Paul
  • 'Get me that floating fat man!' The Emperor upon landing on Dune
  • 'His name is a killing word' -In fact NOT from the book, but rather the 80's movie.
  • 'I will not fear, fear is the little death that brings total annihilation' -The Bene Gessariat Mantra against fear (I forget the full version about where you turn around)

In case this is still an active issue, I wanted to note that it is more appropriate to list quotes from the novel(s) in Wikiquote: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Dune This article is already lengthy and a list of quotes here adds nothing of value. TAnthony 18:02, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Farad'n a character?

While Farad'n is a member of House Corrino, I do not recall his presence in this book. If indeed he is not present then I don't think it would be appropriate for him to receive mention here.

I believe that Farad'n was referenced as one of the potential heirs to to the throne. Although I have to agree, his presence in the first book of Dune isn't noteworthy. GreatMizuti 13:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Synopsis errors?

There are some things I have problems with and I thought it best to present them to the writers of the article and let them decide if they want to edit it or not.

"While they anticipate a trap, the Atreides are unable to withstand a devastating Harkonnen attack, supported by Imperial Sardaukar dressed as Harkonnen troops and aided by a traitor within House Atreides itself. Duke Leto is assassinated, but Paul and Jessica escape into the deep desert. "

The Duke isn't assassinated, with the help of the Suk Doctor Yueh he commits suicide attempting to assassinate the Baron Harkonnen in a final act of somewhat ironic revenge.

"Paul emerges as the Kwisatz Haderach, and Jessica's knowledge of the secret religious myths of the Fremen planted by the Bene Gesserit Missionaria Protectiva enable Paul to become Muad'Dib, a religious and political leader (Mahdi) who unites millions of the Fremen together into an unstoppable military force."

Paul isn't the Kwisatz Haderach, he admits this himself in the book, that he is in fact "something other" this is confirmed by Leto II in the fourth book, God Emperor, but wrt the novel, which I'm sure is what is important to the article, Paul declares that he isn't.

"Paul and Jessica are sent out into the desert to die. Because of the use of truthsayers in the Empire, the Baron Harkonnen needs to be able to say truthfully that he was not (directly) responsible for their deaths."

The reason the Baron needs to be able to truthfully claim that he wasn't responible for their deaths is because he fears reprisals from the Bene Gesserit for ordering the death of one of their agents and, unbeknownst to him, a prized bloodline.

"Meanwhile, Yueh, realizing that it is likely that the Harkonnens have been playing him for a dupe, and that his wife is probably dead already, plants a poison gas capsule, disguised as a tooth, in Leto's mouth, and informs Leto about it."

Yueh honestly didn't suspect that his wife, a Bene Gesserit agent, was dead, he just despised the despotic Baron enough to plan an assassination attempt.

"The Spacing Guild have no choice - their limited powers of prophecy show Paul is capable of it - and they send everyone home. "

Guild Navigators cannot see Paul in their prescience (nor can he see them) however, as Paul points out, what he perceives to be the flaw of the Spacing Guild is that they always take the safest option and it is not that they know he is capable of it but rather that they suspect that he would. Not the safest option. GreatMizuti 14:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Something I like to add to the list of errors would be: "... Instead, Shaddam uses a centuries-old feud between House Atreides and House Harkonnen as cover for his assault, enlisting the brilliant and power-hungry Baron Vladimir Harkonnen in a chance to eliminate his most hated rivals."

This contradicts with one of the chapter introductions in the novel. In one of them it is clearly stated that Emperor Shaddam admired the Duke Atreides (and secretly wanted him to be his son) and regretted the situation which made them enemies (Excuse me for not being able to find the right page)
As for the Harkonnens, Shaddam's personal opinion of them is never revealed (?) Therefore I think "most hated" is wrong here and should either be dropped or be replaced with something in the lines of "greatest". --Timenn 18:48, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll just throw in a couple of comments:

Yueh did suspect that his wife was already dead. In fact, he's almost certain of it. In the novel the thing he is most after is to see the Baron so that he can be "sure" of it... and, of course, that he has his chance to kill the Baron by way of the poison tooth.
While your last point does contradict one of the chapter introductions, you should note that the chapter introduction is written by the Princess Irulan. I've always thought of her as something of an apologist for her father's cutthroat politics. Justin Bacon 03:56, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


I'm pretty sure that the "his" in "his most hated rivals" was intended to refer to the Baron, not Shaddam. It's not wrong, it's just ambiguous writing, and needs fixing. Bowfee 18:55, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Astronomical error

Removed "The Imperium is often mistaken as a galactic one, but it seems that the stars have their own nebulas." as it makes no sense whatsoever. Clarityfiend 00:25, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Best-selling science fiction novel of all time?

I came across the quote and citation in this article that discusses Dune as the best-selling science fiction novel of all time, with more than 12 million copies sold. That just doesn't seem like that many to me, but I can't discover a way to retrieve sales figures on novels such as Jurassic Park, Stranger in a Strange Land, Frankenstein, or 2001. Is there a way to fact-check this claim? Benji 15:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, the claim comes from the publisher here, so the trail ends there. Short of actually seeing the raw statistics for all booksellers from the 1900s on, I'm not sure how one would fact-check such an assertion. --maru (talk) contribs 03:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
The publisher's claim has the feel of factless publicity. Since it's a simple factual claim that Dune is the best-selling science fiction novel of all time (12 million copies sold is the figure that seems to stick in my mind), it would be a simple matter of finding out if any science fiction novel has sold more than 12 million copies. I'm just hoping that someone more familiar with publishing figures than myself could offer some actual proof of the numbers involved here.Benji 16:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Synopsis house-cleaning

Did a bit of minor clean-up. One thing stood out as questionable and I have moved it here for discussion:

"By then Earth is no longer inhabited..."

I can find no direct statement or reference to this in Dune. If there is one, please note it here and replace this in the article. (I'll continue to check for myself as well.)

SandChigger 21:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I can go looking things up if you want, but I'm fairly sure that in Dune Messiah, when Paul was having Stilgar study history, Earth is referred to as "mythical" and in the past tense. --maru (talk) contribs 18:54, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

No need, Maru. Is this what you're thinking of:

"The Golden Age of Earth, have you ever studied that?"
"Earth? Golden Age?" Stilgar was irritated and puzzled. Why would Paul wish to discuss myths from the dawn of time?

found on p.91 (out of 222) of Messiah. That Stilgar regards Earth as mythical does not necessarily mean it is no longer inhabited, does it? --SandChigger 03:04, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Bleh. Maybe that didn't quite prove what I thought it did. --maru (talk) contribs 03:09, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Can you remember any names they might have used other than "(Old) Earth" or "(Old) Terra"? (If you follow my drift... ;) --SandChigger 03:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Maru, I've also found this, from Children (p.226/380):
St. Thomas was preserved in the Orange Catholic Bible and the Azhar Book, but Canterbury was gone from the memories of men, as was the planet which had known it.
Like a has-been movie star, forgotten but not gone? Sorry, still nothing conclusive. --SandChigger 17:16, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

It would seem logical that if the earth was still populated then it would not be known as a myth but as a reality. While this does not directly indicate an abandoned earth it does mean that those in the known universe are not aware of it, its location or what level of habitation it has. By Occam's Razor the most likely reason is that it cannot be found and is not of value to find (Hence the reference to myth and gone from memory). Makes a lot more sense and is "simpler" than an earth which still has a population but is somehow unknown to the universe and does not seek to interact with anyone within it? Enigmatical 06:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I think I've finally found the quote I was thinking of. It's one of the epigraphs, early on in GEoD:

"Keep it all intact," I warn myself. Who can deny the value of such experiences, the worth of learning through which I view each new instant? Ahhh, but it's the past. Don't you understand? It's only the past! a yurt at the edge of a horse-plain in a land of a planet which no longer exists. Tomorrow I will be born someone else in another place. II have not yet chosen. This morning, though-ahhh, this life! When my eyes had learned to focus, I looked out at sunshine on trampled grass and I saw vigorous people going about the sweet activities ... oh where has all of that vigor gone? -The Stolen Journals"

The relevant portion here is "land of a planet which no longer exists." He's obviously talking about Earth, since none of the other planets have yurts, and elsewhere whenever Herbert refers to pre-Industrial age cultural artifacts like that, it's always been in reference to Earth (like Leto II and Ghanima speaking French, for example). --maru (talk) contribs 01:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

You're tcertain about that? Coulda been Harmonthep, maybe? :) SandChigger 06:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Harmonthep? What was that? --maru (talk) contribs 13:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Harmonthep: Ingsley gives this as the planet name for the sixth stop in the Zensuuni migration. It is supposed to have been a no longer existent satellite of Delta Pavonis.[1] Earth is more likely, but we can't be certain so it's all speculation. -- Миборовский 21:36, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Miborovsky beat me to it, just as I was editing! (Cheers!) I'm not trying to say that you're wrong exactly, just that there's an assumption that might not be valid. See Yurt for mention of (current) "Industrial Age enthusiasts". SandChigger 21:42, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
But who is Ingsley and why do we care? --maru (talk) contribs 01:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Template:Spoiler

I would assume that he is a historian in the Duniverse.
Which is a very dangerous thing to do, since it means the entire glossary could have been written "in character", meaning compleat with all the fallibilities and limitations that flesh is heir to. (In short, any inconsistencies within it could be thrown out using the "Irulan Gambit", like the location of Paul's birthplace. Which has now been made a fact of canon in Hunters anyway, in that it is explicitly stated by a character in the text.)
OOPS! PREVIOUS LINE CONTAINS SPOILER! SandChigger 06:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Template:Endspoiler

Assumptions are the first step into an early grave... --maru (talk) contribs 01:16, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
"Do you want to live forever?" - Valeria. I find no mention anywhere else of an Ingsley who would/could have commented on the Delta Pavonis system. Sic. SandChigger 02:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
"If I wanted to die, I'd take care of the job myself!" Yeah, I'm not finding this Ingsley thing very satisfying; it's also kind of annoying I can't find any smoking gun quotes even though it is obvious Earth is one with Nineveh, as the saying goes. --maru (talk) contribs 02:58, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

While Earth is referred to as mythical, this is a common sc-fi plot device, and almost never means that Earth is no longer inhabited. The usual reason that Earth is mythical is because it is so far away, and because the protoagonist's forbears left Earth so very long ago. Or because Earth is (by default) left with insular, conservative isolationists who discourage interaction with those who have left. I'm not saying that any of these is implied in Dune, merely that earth being mythical ceratinaly does not imply that it is no longer inhabited. That would be one of the least likely conclusions that I would draw.Leeborkman 01:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I can't buy the distance bit. Caladan (Delta Pavonis III) is only about 20 ly from Earth. SandChigger 06:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

More POV

Someone has spammed the article again. I think it was the same person. I agree that this is spam, but I agree with the point of view.

Allusions/references to actual history, geography and current science - full of POV?

eg, this new addition: "Bene Gesserit is clearly a reference to the Jesuit Order founded by Ignatius of Loyla - an organization known for soldierly discpline and great learning." Leeborkman 01:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, I see that someone else removed it as I was typing. Leeborkman 01:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I just reverted the edit which divided this section with a new subsection devoted to Islamic parallels with the life story of Muhammed. I felt this was a poor way of doing it, hence the revert. SandChigger 11:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Dune vs Dunia

re "clear wordplay" - Dune vs dunia. Not credible: a) in FH's notes the world was referred to as "Dune Planet" or "Duneworld" (see The Road to Dune); b) FH has repeatedly written that the inspiration for the novel was a piece he researched on using plants to halt encroaching sand dunes; c) there's no evidence FH knew Arabic before starting Dune. (Just because Anthony Burgess knowingly used dunia as the name of an invented nation in Devil of a State doesn't mean FH is likely to have done so.) Tanzeelat 10:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I put the {{fact}} tag on this earlier but wondered if it shouldn't be moved here for discussion. I'll notify Oryanw that I've done this. SandChigger 12:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
  • The name of the planet (and the novel), Dune, is a clear wordplay: The word dune in English refers to a large sandmound while the planet Dune is a desert planet. And the word dunia (and similar sounding loanwords) in Arabic and many Arabic influenced languages of Africa and South Asia means world, a fact made particularly significant by the many Middle Eastern references in the work. The planet Dune is a large desert world unto itself.[citation needed]
Honestly, that just strikes me a stupid. Well of course Dune's name refers to the sand dunes which comprise it... --Gwern (contribs) 14:53, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks to SandChigger for moving this here (and alerting me), and to Tanzeelat for his/her interesting comments. Perhaps I should have written astonishing coincidence instead of clear wordplay. But since the citation requested is to FH's thought processes (properly so, since clear wordplay seems now to me to presuppose intent on FH's part, which I doubt anyone has a citation for) and not to an Arabic dictionary, supporting astonishing coincidence would involve proving a negative. I don't think the word *pun* necessarily implies intent one way or another. Substituting the word pun (or some other intent-neutral term), I believe my observation is valid and worth commenting on. But I won't replace it. The "pun" does strike me as obvious, for the reasons given. (I am not familiar with the Burgess novel, nor had I yet studied any Arabic when I became aware of the widespread use of the word dunia. Thanks to all for your comments. Most educational. O'RyanW (☺

₪) 20:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

More wordplay: The 'Myst' series of computer games and novels refers to a world called "D'ni" and pronounced 'Dunny'. This world is the origin of the participants. Although there are many desert references in the game the fantasy novels suggest D'ni is depp inside the Earth itself (but one of the entrances in this world lies in a desert according to one). Other names in the mist milieu show some signs of arabic roots or origins too. (Larger Lout) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.120.81.205 (talk) 11:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC).
Well, as they say in the Arab world, dunia mathal khayara... :-) Tanzeelat 21:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
The thing was writ with sand? And none saw what he wrote? C'mon, don't tease us here. --Gwern (contribs) 03:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)