Talk:Downtown

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Wow, a clear case of primary topic disambiguation. I'm doing so now. --SPUI (talk) 23:51, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I am mildly interested in moving this back to downtown. Since I have added some text to clarify its etymology and usage in New York City, it is no longer a strict disambiguation page. Does anyone strongly support or oppose this idea? –Joke 17:26, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] The correct origin of the word "downtown"

(The following comes from "America in So Many Words," by David K.Barnhart and Allan A. Metcalf. Copyright © 1997 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.)

downtown Origin: 1836

Maybe it began in New York City. Circumstantial evidence certainly points there, for the only direction in which rapidly expanding New York could grow was up the island of Manhattan. Someone heading that way would be going up from town--and New York was still something of a town at the start of the nineteenth century. By the early 1830s, the term uptown was used for the desirable new residential district away from the business center. An 1833 article states, "The property-holders up-town would have the site of the building a mile or so from the present chief seat of business."

"Chief seat of business" is ponderous next to glamorous uptown; in fact, it makes the central business district sound positively old-fashioned. So it is not surprising that some central-city booster thought of changing up to down and balancing uptown with its brisk opposite, downtown. A diarist noted in 1836, "This, at least, is the opinion of the best judges of the value of down-town property." By 1844 New York's Evening Mirror could comment, "'Up-Town' and 'Down-Town.'--We see that these names of the different halves of the city are becoming the common language of advertisements, notices, etc."

Both uptown and downtown spread beyond New York to practically every city and town in America. But most cities have not been constrained by geography into a single direction for expansion, so single-direction uptown is less satisfactory a a word for the newer residential areas. Geography and transportation have worked together to give us the suburb, which has replaced uptown in the twentieth century as downtown's polar opposite. But downtown has had more staying power. For better or worse, for renewal as well as decay, every city still has a downtown central core, even when it sprawls as much a present-day Los Angeles.

[edit] Against proposed merge

For the record, I oppose the proposed merge with central business district because Manhattan's downtown is important in its own right (as the basis for the use of the word throughout the United States), and because the CBD article is already too long. --Coolcaesar 06:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I concur. –Joke 13:08, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Considering the sole reason I just came to this page was to see if we had an etymology on "downtown" and "uptown" in the socio-economic and geographical sense, I'm willing to say there's definitely reasons to keep it as-is. I'm going to have to suggest this article should stay a separate entity. Hossenfeffer 18:33, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Speaking as a non-American (Aussie to be exact) I'd also say leave as is. Cheers, Ian Rose 01:07, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
As a practicing city planner/urban design professional I ardently oppose the proposed merger. A "Downtown" is based on a fundamentally distinct concept from a "Central Business District" or CBD. They perform different cultural and economic functions for the city, as a whole. A "downtown" is more closely related to the concept of a "town center"--normally the hub of many varied functions--civic, social, economic and governmental--while a "central business district" is primarily limited (whether by zoning and use restrictions or simply by practice and the evolution of the urban space) to economic functions. The cultural component particularly provides a distinguishing characteristic. The simple fact that in NYC these two have been functionally mereged does NOT mean that the concepts are the same--I could name multiple urban areas that have segregated these functions into different areas.Jwest1883 17:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the uptown/downtown = north/south definition holds up. doesn't the designation in fact originally refer to the flow of a river that most major commercial cities were located on? this certainly accords with NY and New Orleans "down" towns. and in NO, by the compass, downtown is kind of east and kind of north from uptown--so that definition's not going to float. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.11.76.96 (talk • contribs) .

This seems plausible to me. The OED etymology seems to confirm this, but isn't totally clear to me. –Joke 01:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Downtown isn't a uniquely New York concept. Every city I can think of in the US has a "downtown". Perhaps "Downtown New York" should get its own article, but not "downtown". According to Webster's Dictionary, and Wikitionary, "downtown" is synonymous with "CBD". Heck, the CBD article itself refers to them synonymously, and even lists the downtowns of most large American cities. What's the purpose in keeping an extremely short stub article when the information here would fit much better as a small paragraph/section in the CBD article? 70.118.243.144 00:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Treating downtown as equivalent to inner city is original research and is inaccurate and inappropriate

Downtown is not equivalent to the inner city in most American cities. For example, South Los Angeles is considered to be an inner city neighborhood, but it is over five miles away from Downtown Los Angeles. Similarly, Hunters Point in San Francisco is considered to be an inner city neighborhood, but it is four miles away from Downtown San Francisco. Can anyone give an example of any city in the United States where the inner city is exactly equivalent to the downtown? (Besides Detroit.) If no one gives me a counterexample, I'm changing the lead paragraph back to the original longstanding text. --Coolcaesar 17:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

If there's an error, it's in the sometime usage of "inner city". In what sense are these California residential neighborhoods "inner"? The inner cities of Chicago, New York, London and Tokyo are The Loop, Midtown, the Square Mile, and Chuo-ku, respectively. As it happens, I live in one of these, but all are primarily commercial and only incidentally, if at all, residential. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jim.henderson (talk • contribs) 16:08, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
It's quite well established that the term "inner city" is used by experts on inner cities to refer to the entire core of a city including residential, commercial, and industrial neighborhoods. Take a look at the thousands and thousands of scholarly books that discuss inner city housing on Google Books: [1]. --Coolcaesar 17:48, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Also look at the American Heritage Dictionary definition: [2] --Coolcaesar 17:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I'm fixing Jim.henderson's bad edit. It's been almost two weeks. --Coolcaesar 06:57, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] opening photograph

Anyone find it strange that the article giving a general description of "downtown" opens with a photograph of midtown manhattan?... I mean, just after that is an etymology describing downtown Manhattan as the root of the word "downtown." Wouldn't it be more appropriate to use a picture of downtown Manhattan? I would change it myself but I'm not familiar enough with how to do that on wiki. You guys have thoughts? 206.223.252.241 06:14, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

There may be some better examples at Lower Manhattan. By the way the same image is also seen on Portal:Vancouver. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 08:27, 15 November 2007 (UTC)