Talk:Donner Party

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Contents 1 Cannibalism 2 Numbers 3 Cannibalism not proven 4 More to the point 5 Survivor amount 6 More on numbers 7 pronunciation

[edit] Cannibalism

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/12/donner.party.ap/index.html This article suggests cannibalism did not happen on the trip.

I'd vote that the new studies ( the CNN link doesn't work, http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20060109/donnerparty_his.html does) should be noted on the front page, given they are scientific studies and at the very least seem to note legitimate disagreement. -Nate

There is ample evidence that cannibalism occurred. The fact that the study did not find evidence of it is not evidence that cannibalism didn't occur. The only evidence they were looking for were cooked bones. If the cannibals simply sliced meat from a body there would be no lasting evidence. While we should mention the study, we shouldn't overplay it. -Will Beback 21:51, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Further comment: The Alder Creek digs of 2003-2004 do not "cast doubt" on Donner Party cannibalism. The archaeologists did not find evidence of cannibalism at Alder Creek, but this is easily explainable. Further, the Alder Creek digs say nothing about other incidents of cannibalism by Donner Party members at the lake camp, among the "Forlorn Hope" snowshoers, or at Starved Camp. Survivors said they ate human flesh and rescuers saw the evidence. Donner Party cannibalism is not in doubt among anyone who is familiar with the incident; it's the general public who have misinterpreted the archaeological evidence as "casting doubt" on cannibalism. DPL, 6/28/2007

Cannibalism in the Donner Party is not in question. Ten survivors said they ate human flesh. At the Donner family camp at Alder Creek, the Donners told the First Relief that they were going to start eating the bodies of the dead; when the Second Relief arrived at Alder Creek they saw children eating human flesh and mutilated corpses. Three Alder Creek survivors (Georgia Donner, Mary Donner, and Jean-Baptiste Trudeau) said that cannibalism had occurred at the Donner camp. This is not a legend, but a matter of record. People who are unfamiliar with the historical sources are not competent to dismiss them as "legends." Kristin Johnson, author Unfortunate Emigrants: Narratives of the Donner Party (Logan: Utah State University Press, 1996).

[edit] Numbers

interesting article, although kind of gruesome

Is it just me or do these numbers not add up?

In mid-December fifteen of the trapped emigrants set out on snowshoes for the fort, about 100 miles (160 km) away. Soon they were lost and their rations ran out. Caught without shelter in a raging blizzard, four of the company died. In desperation, the others resorted to cannibalism. Three more died and were cannibalized before finally, nearly naked and close to death, seven of the fifteen snowshoers reached safety on the western side of the mountains on January 19, 1847.

i believe that the missing members are presumed to have been cannibalized by their companions... --jonasaurus 23:54, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

The point is four dead + three cannibalized + seven survivors = fourteen total. -Willmcw 00:25, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I think I get it. First, you can't add the four dead + three cannibalized, because some of them are the same people. Also, the snowshoers were some of the stronger men, who went for help, not the entire group including women and children.--Bcrowell 16:05, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

You're assuming that all those who died were cannibalized, which was not the case-- the first person to die, Charles Stanton, had to be left behind when he gave out. The original statement was correct: 15 people = 7 survivors + 8 dead (one not cannibalized). --Kristin Johnson

[edit] Cannibalism not proven

The article states the cannibalism as a fact in several places, but IIRC the evidence is not that clear. Some of the witnesses' accounts are clearly false, e.g., there was a statement by a rescuer that he saw a kettle of blood, but it would have been coagulated.--Bcrowell 15:56, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I've done some editing to try to make it more NPOV on this point. E.g., on the statement that half of the survivors had resorted to cannibalism, I'm convinced this can't possibly be known with certainty and accuracy; many of the survivors didn't want to talk much about what happened, and if cannibalism did take place, those who did it had a strong motivation not to admit it. (They were huddled in small groups in the deep snow, I believe, so it's not as though everybody would have known whether a particular person ate human flesh or not.)--Bcrowell 16:05, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

(Arrgh!) The historical record makes it abundantly clear that cannibalism occurred in the Donner Party. The evidence for cannibalism among the Forlorn Hope snowshoers and at the Donner Lake camp cannot reasonably be doubted; the evidence of it at the Alder Creek camp is not as good, but still strong. There is far too much for me to take the time here and now to rebut the foregoing comments, so it looks like I'll have to set the evidence out on my website. Check New Light on the Donner Party (http://www.utahcrossroads.org), in about a month or so, I should have it up by then. In the meantime, the previous author is heartily enjoined to refrain from "correcting" anyone else's work on the Donner Party. --Kristin Johnson, author, Unfortunate Emigrants: Narratives of the Donner Party (Logan: Utah State University Press, 1996).

the donner party means that = people who got stuck in the snow on the way to California there were about 70 odd people 30 odd got eaten they wouldn't eat there own families they would label them to make sure

No, they did NOT label "there own familys" -- this is a prime example of why Ric Burns is not to be trusted.

[edit] More to the point

We all have a psychological aversion to cannibalism, though structurally human flesh is not that much different from other large mammals. I expect some who fed their families this meat probably told them they had got a bear or moose.

The moral of this tale has to be to think twice before taking others along on an unproven venture. In this case a shortcut that set them back three weeks.

The 'shortcut' was lengthy because of the diffculty corssing the wasatch range, and particularly getting down the last canyon (Emigration canyon) into the Salt lake Valley. The strain on the draft animals was significant. That the Mormons took advantage of the road cut a year before is significant to the Momon pioneer story, but is also worthy of at least a trivia mention in the Donner party article.Rockford1963 00:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, the fact that the path cleared by the Donner party was used for 10 more years by others (mostly Mormons) coming into the SLV, should be included. Perhaps this infomration could be included in a new subsection on legacy of the Donner Party? In any case it does appear that the reference supplied is applicable, so I don't know why it was stated to be otherwiseRockford1963 13:17, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Response to Rockford1963's revisions:

• The problem is not the reference to Mormon use of the Emigration Canyon route, which is legitimate. The problem is the comparative emphasis put on Mormon use of the route.
• The interjected sentences are not in keeping with the concise tone of the rest of the article. For instance, the reference to crossing the Salt Desert doesn't dwell on the terrain, so emphasizing the terrain in the Wasatch is out of place.
• That the Mormon pioneers came through "almost a year later" is an unnecessary detail.
• There are three errors of fact in the interjected sentences: the DP spent 12 days, not "weeks," roadbuilding in the Wasatch; they entered the valley on Aug. 22, not 12; and the route they pioneered was in use for at least 15 years, not 10.
• Dale Beecher's article contains many errors and is unworthy of citation. It makes no mention of the Mormon pioneer company following the Donners' route and the statement that the route was in use for 10 years is inaccurate.
• The cumulative effect of the sentences is to inject Mormon bias into the article.

Response to Rockford1963's comments above:

• Getting down "the last canyon" was not especially gruelling, contrary to a myth popular in Utah.
• The historical legacy of the Donner Party is limited; most of its legacy is cultural, and there's already a "popular culture" section.

204.228.152.241 14:46, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

10 or 15 years aside, the fact that the trail was used for years should be mentioned. As to the acuracy of the article cited, please find a better one, but the article does reference the use of the trail by later groups. As for Mormon bias, I see none. It is simply historical cross referencing, thus my suggestion to create a spearate subsection in this article, maybe entitled 'lessons learned', or 'legacy for groups following'. I think the 'last grueling part' includes the entire time cutting through the Wasatch range (12 days), which put a cumuilitve strain on the draft animals and the people, and their equipment - this would have a ripple effect later on (slowing them down, making them even arrive even later in the Sierra Nevada range. This may be part specualtion, but is till worthy of a mention. Dates will be corrected,per your previous posting.Rockford1963 15:07, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Response:

• It is not my responsibility to find a citation for your statements.
• FYI, the authoritative work on emigrant trails through Utah is Korns & Mogan, West From Fort Bridger, rev. ed. by Will Bagley & Hal Schindler, USU Press, 1994.
• It is the comparative emphasis that creates bias.

The information is worthy of inclusion, but to try to meet halfway I created the subsection. The article is still concise, and is not overly longRockford1963 19:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

• Thank you for creating the subsection; the information is more appropriate there. You could also add a link to the Wikipedia Mormon Trail entry.
• The sentence starting "The difficulties experienced by the Donner Party" makes absolutely no sense. Later travelers were dissuaded from following "similar routes"? What "similar routes"? What are you talking about?

I will for the time defer to your apparent greater knowledge on the matter, but I was under the impression that the experience of the Donner Party was noted by other groups traveling to California, and that most of these would not take the same route, specifically because the delay would get them to the Sierra Nevadas too late in the season. I'm not sure about those that did take the same route, there were some weren't there?, but there were other groups, traveling to different routes altogether who aparently did not learn from the DP lesson that a group should get past the mountains before snow.Rockford1963 01:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Response:

• The DP cuts a road through the Wasatch with great difficulty. That road becomes part of the Mormon Trail. Thousands of people use it. Frequent use makes it more passable over time. So how can taking this route slow people down and make them too late to get over the Sierra before winter? Yes, many California-bound emigrants were aware of the Donner disaster, but this didn't prevent them from taking the route via Salt Lake.
• The Donner route over the Sierra wasn't abandoned, either. There are dozens of diaries by emigrants who took the Truckee Route.
• Hate to mention it, but the only emigrant groups I know of who got stuck in the snow were the handcart companies of 1856...
• If you're "under the impression" that something happened but don't know for sure, it would be best to leave it out of Wikipedia.

[edit] Survivor amount

47 people survived not 46. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.26.107.174 (talk) 23:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC).

Actually, there were 48 survivors. I've corrected the entry.

I'm pretty sure in my history class that 47 survived,but I could be wrong? The Donner Party was a group of California-bound American settlers caught up in the "westering fever" of the 1840s. After becoming snowbound in the Sierra Nevada in the winter of 1846–1847, some of the emigrants resorted to cannibalism.

[edit] More on numbers

OK, time to clear things up. The number of people "in the Donner Party" depends on whether you include Luis and Salvador, two Indians who helped bring provisions from Sutter's Fort and were trapped with the emigrants.

There were 87 emigrants, 89 people total if you include the two Indians.

• 87 emigrants: 39 died, 48 survived
• 89 people: 41 died, 48 survived

Of the 87 emigrants, 79 were trapped in the mountains, plus Luis and Salvador, for a total of 81 people.

• 79 emigrants trapped: 34 died, 45 survived
• 81 people trapped: 36 died, 45 survived

Please, no more tinkering with the numbers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TammyZ (talk • contribs) 14:29, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

According to the timeline, they were killing each other long before they started to starve. Do the numbers reflect that? A John Snyder was stabbed to death, a Mr. Hardkoop is abandoned along the side of the road, a German named Wolfinger is then murdered, and a William Pike is shot to death by his own brother-in-law. It's like they couldn't wait for the death to start... 70.20.149.174 (talk) 02:10, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

The second set of numbers (81 people trapped) reflects 1. the departure of three individuals from the wagon train, and 2. five deaths that occurred before the Donner Party reached the mountains. "They couldn't wait for the death to start" is untrue; only one of these deaths was caused intentionally. Halloran died of tuberculosis. Reed killed Snyder in self-defense; it was not murder. The abandoning of Hardcoop was a tragic oversight and certainly not deliberate. Wolfinger disappeared under suspicious circumstances, but only afterward did Reinhardt admit he'd had anything to do with his death. Foster did not shoot Pike -- the gun discharged accidentally. TammyZ (talk) 06:06, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] pronunciation

/dɒnə(ɹ)/ or /dəʊnə(ɹ)/? --81.158.148.64 (talk) 15:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

/dɒnə(ɹ)/, /dɑnə(ɹ)/, or /dɔnə(ɹ)/, but certainly not /dəʊnə(ɹ)/ ! 204.228.152.241 (talk) 06:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)