Talk:Don Cossacks

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This article should be conected to History of Ukraine, rather than Russia.

Cossacks, to begin with, were run-away Ukrainian peasants in defiance of their serfdom to foreign - primarily Polish and Muscowy occupation of Ukraine. Don Cossacks, are Cossacks who settled the area of what is a modern day Russian Federation after anti-Ukrainian or Anti-Cossack campaign of Muscowy. During that period and later on Cossacks were manipulated into service of Russian Empire - a cruel irony of Ukrainian history...

POV statement...nothing more--Kuban Cossack 02:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


Of course, there were different groups of cossacks connected to different ethnical groups an through that countries. The DonCossacks for example were mostly russian and tatar by ethnicity, most of them lived north of the kaspian sea originally, but came later than the "original" cosacks. the Original Cossacks, or the Zaporozhian as they were called, are the ones who the Kuban Cosacks consider their forefathers. A lot of cossacks were from persian or turkish(spelling?) descent and therefore it is wrong to say it should be connected only one country, but it is indeed interesting to connect to both ukraine and russia, as well as other countries(france?? we DID kick Napoleons butt once or twice (jk) ;-). But yes, our people were forced into servitude, but they also fought with honour to uphold deals they made. It is a complex history, that of our people.

//V


There is a lot of confusion due to terminology. The name “Cossack” was used to describe “free people” as opposed to others with different standing in a feudal society (i.e., peasants, nobles, clergy, etc..) As a result, there were several groups of different origin who came to be known as Cossacks. Zaporozhian Cossacks (козаки) were completely different from Don Cossacks (казаки). The difference in name is more noticeable in the Russian language. I personally thought that Don Cossacks originated as groups of run-away peasants. However, there were some unexplained things such as “Don Cossack nationalism“ (it is blamed for the failure of the White movement after the Revolution of 1917), unique culture, the well-known fact that Cossacks did not blend with other Russians, and had rather privileged status in Imperial Russia. I changed my opinion regarding Don Cossacks' origin after my DNA testing which triggered my interest in this subject and caused me to do some research. My Y-DNA comes from the line of Don Cossacks that lived in Novocherkassk. My DNA results showed an overwhelming number of matches with people from Central Europe (predominantly Germans). This caused me to believe in the theory that Don Cossacks are descendants of Goths. This theory was very popular before WWII and was completely discredited by the concept of “Aryan superiority” (Cossacks were considered "true" Aryans) preached by fascists that makes people question absolutely everything endorsed by Hitler, regardless if it is true or not. In Soviet times, it was important to keep nationalism under control and promote internationalism. I think that for this reason the emphasis in the history of Don Cossacks was made on the fact that some run-away peasants found shelter in Don Cossack land. Indeed some of the Russian peasants escaped to the Cossack area for different reasons (mostly religious, as Cossacks were old-believers for a very long time).

Don Cossacks have no connection to the history of Ukraine. Zaporozhian Cossacks and Kuban Cossacks (some of whom are descendants of Zaporozhian Cossacks and others are descendants of Don Cossacks) is a different story.

Melehov. —Preceding unsigned comment added by G Melehov (talk • contribs) 01:50, 20 September 2007 (UTC) --G Melehov 04:28, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

That shows the fallacy of DNA research. There enough contemporary sources indicating that the Don Cossacks were a mix of many different groups. The Goth theory was advanced by Nazi collaborators seeking to establish a Cossack autonomy. They couldn't do so if they were mere Slavs, like the rest of the Russians. AllenHansen (talk) 01:50, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Allen, could you please share your sources “indicating that the Don Cossacks were a mix of many different groups” ? I found only old soviet versions of Don Cossack history, which, in my personal opinion, are not complete. I agree that a DNA result of only one person is not enough to make global conclusion about the Don Cossack’s origin. However, there are couple things why I do not easily accept a theory that the Don Cossacks are just simply a mix of different ethnic groups that settled in Don area (I do not deny the fact that mixing was taking place as with any other nation, just do not believe that it explains the Don Cossack’s origin): 1) A theory that the Don Cossacks are descendants of Kurgan people (aka Aryans)=> Goths => Ostrogoths was known before WWII and nazi Goebbels propaganda only adopted, put their spin, and used this theory for their wacky political goals; 2) If the Don Cossacks were accepting people of different origin, why there was a strict division between the Don Cossacks and “tufties” (хохлы / Ukranians) and “muzhiks” (мужики / Russians) that lived side by side with the Don Cossacks after they run away from their homeland and found shelter in the Don Cossack land ? Why Mikhail Sholokhov, who wrote a number of books about the Don Cossacks and popularized Cossack culture and history was not considered a Cossack himself? If everyone could become a Cossack, he should be one for sure, but he was not. Thank you. Melehov G Melehov (talk) 00:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

1)There were Ostrogoths living in the Don area, but they had mixed with the Greeks, Alans and others locals who lived there and were in turn swallowed up by the various nomadic and Slavic tribes which inhabited the Wild Plain. From about the 15th to the 18th centuries Don Cossacks were mixing with Armenians, Greeks, Ukrainians, Turks, Persians, Germans, Kalmyks and others.

2)The distinction was one of status, not nationality. Volya, freedom to roam and bear arms, set you apart from others. One of the ways Pugachev gained a massive following was by promising volya to the serfs and other muzhiks, which were despised by Cossacks because of their servility. In "And Quiet Flows the Don" the worst insult Mitka Korshunov knows of is muzhik. Sholokhov was born long after the Don Cossacks had established themselves as a special group. Conservatism and closed-mindedness had set in. Sholokhov wasn't of Cossack stock, his father was lower-middle class, had never even fought, IIRC, and his mother Ukrainian. AllenHansen (talk) 09:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Allen, first, I should say that your point of view is most popular and has very good grounds. However, I still have my doubts about Don Cossacks first being a melting pot of different nationalities that populated Don area and later becoming an exclusive cast. I do not see how such dramatic transformation could happen. Another reason why I have my doubts is religious aspect of Don Cossack lifestyle. Assuming that Cossacks were of Russian, Turkish, German descent how would you explain that all of them were Russian Orthodox by religion? More than that, Don Cossack’s motto was “For Faith, Tsar and Fatherland ”. Notice that faith is placed first. Russian Orthodox religion was extremely important for Cossacks. I would expect that people of different descent, coming from Protestant, Muslim and other countries would prefer to keep their believe system or at least would not make religion an important issue, otherwise they would not be able to blend.

You made very good point about distinction between status against nationality. Similar process is happening in our times to Russians. Would you disagree with me that Russian is a nationality not only a person who has a citizenship of Russian Federation ? The neologism “Rossiyanin” supposed to take care of the difference. I believe that very similar process happened to the Don Cossacks in the last couple centuries, when the word “Cossack” was loosely used to describe a military unit, a certain lifestyle, anyone who came from the Don Cossack land. Over time distinction between nationality and status was eroded and now some people do not even believe that such nationality ever existed. Probably the same will eventually happen to Russians. G Melehov (talk) 20:51, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

If a candidate wasn't Pravoslavny, either by birth or conversion, he couldn't be accpeted. Religion played a far greater role than ethnos.

In the early days of the Don Cossack history, they were just forming, so, of course they welcomed anyone who wanted to join with them. Otherwise, you'd be small and weak and would die on the frontier. As years went by, their power and rights increased, so they became less-inclined to accept others. Make sense? AllenHansen (talk) 10:53, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I guess it is possible. However, I believe I have few arguments to defend my opinion. If I understood your comment correctly, a German or Turkish candidate was only required to convert to Russian Orthodox religion and he would be accepted to be a member of Don Cossacks’ society and over time to be called a Cossack. Though in my opinion it was not the case, but OK, let’s assume that it is what was happening. So, a German or Turkish peasant escapes to the Don Cossack land, denounces his religion and adopts his Russian Orthodox first name. What about last name? I would expect to see numerous foreign last names or at least Russified derivatives of foreign last names. However, all Don Cossacks have either ancient last names that end –ak, -ik or last names with a Russian root and ending -in, -ov, -sky. I have hard time imagining a Don Cossack with a last name like Fritzov or Magomedin. Only in XIX- XX century there were Don Cossack officers with German last names, but to my knowledge these officers were appointed and did not consider themselves to be Cossacks.

I agree with you that religion played extremely important role. There is one interesting moment as well. Though all Don Cossacks were Russian Orthodox, they belonged to all the different movements within this religion. There were Molokans, Hlysts and numerous others (even Scopecs). Cossacks, especially in Siberia, started few of these movements. So, I think that if Don Cossacks were just asking to convert to Pravoslavie, they would either stick with one branch, or there would be a branch or two that would merge Muslim, Catholic or Protestant believes with traditional Orthodox believes. Such movements did exist relatively close to Don Cossacks, for example Uniats on the territory of Ukraine. However, it looks like they did not have sympathizers in Don Cossack area. The variety of different branches none of which was influenced from outside of Pravoslavny world tells me that: 1) Don Cossacks were relatively open-minded; 2) They were immune to outside of Pravoslavie religious influence. They definitely had plenty of exposure to foreign cultures as they were involved in military campaigns all around Europe and Near East. In my opinion such immunity could be possible only because Don Cossacks did not associate themselves with any other culture and it could only happen if they did not have any connections to other cultures. Thank you. G Melehov (talk) 21:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)