Talk:Dogfight

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[edit] Famous Dogfights

I think we should include descriptions, or at least mention, the more famous aerial encounters, i.e. Duke Cunningham vs. Colonel Tomb as well as dogfights from other periods. This is info that is sorely lacking on the internet...--Luckybeargod 23:14, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

What about the dogfight over Japan, in 1954?

[edit] WRONG!

The first dogfight was during the Mexican Revolutiuon between two pilots firing at eachother with their handguns. Make a note of it!

-G

This article is just plain wrong on many counts. first of all the airspeed is king in any non-turning fight. The better your airspeed, the more enery you can pass on to any missliles you're carrying, this especially true for BVR fights. For the turn fights it's all about turn radius and turn rate. While it's true that maximum turn rate can be attained by pulling on the stick as far as you can, this maximum turnrate will only last very a shot while. Pilots are taught about corner velocity, which is the maximum rate of turn which a plane can maintain for prolonged periods. Ususally corner velocity is not even near the stall speed. more powerfull engines will enable better performance indeed. Aslo it is very much biased towards US made and/or designed weapons and weaponsplatforms. THe development of ACM didn't start with the thatch weave and didn't end with it either. I suggest links to articles concerning BFM and ACM, and that those articles be expanded to be more comprehensive. I aslo think that the $280M pricetag stated for the F/A-22 is irrelevant to this article. - ocf81

"With modern air-to-air missiles greatly extending the general engagement range of jet fighters, the dog fight has largely gone out of existence."

This is a belief, but one not necessarily borne out by reality. Many people thought that dog fighting was obsolete before the Vietnam War, in which there were many dog fights. There continue to be dog fights in present-day air combat. I don't think this notion that dog fighting is going the way of the dodo should be presented as fact. Aside from the reality that dog fighting continues to happen, if it were really going obsolete, why would military colleges still teach the techniques? Now, it's true that some people *believe* the dog fight is on the way out, but that doesn't mean they are right. There were many people who believed that World War I (or II) was the "war to end all wars." -Nelson



  • Shouldn't this page be at Dogfight? It seems to be the more common use of the term... if there's no objections, I'll move it soonish. ... although as soon as I write that I see it's used. Hmm hmm. But most inbound links there are aviation-related... Shimgray 13:51, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
  • What horrible english skills you people have.
Disagree - leave the articles the way they are, they have been well established. SirIsaacBrock 17:29, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
what "articles the way they are" are you referring to?--Buckboard 22:12, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


Never heard the contention that dogfighting is about who can fly the *slowest*; if true, this would be a development only since the jet age. With that in mind, this article needs some historical perspective to not be a stub - a history of the dogfight would be more relevant than dogfighting in space, imho. - RSL, 28 March 2006.

It is also not true. In fact dogfights is often about not losing your speed. Ref: ISBN 0870210599. SlowSam 22:40, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Only in a scissors should stall speed come into play, which is basically a contest of who can make who overshoot. Even then, the second somebody is behind the other, the hammer drops again and it becomes once more a contest of who can get the most energy and use it. 72.9.6.64 23:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Maybe "who can fly the slowest" was in reference to one of the aircraft being able to maintain control at a slower speed. For instance, Aircraft A can maintain effective maneuvering control at 100 knots, and Aircraft B can maintain effective maneuvering control at 110 knots. With both aircraft at 100 knots, Pilot B may experience departure from controlled flight, while Pilot A may maintain control of his/her aircraft, thus giving a potential advantage to pilot A. NozeDive 20:17, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Talk about this intelligently. It is not about "speed". It is about energy and trade-offs (such as altitude-for-energy) in manuevering to gain an advantage. A dogfight is won not just by shooting the other guy down, but making him disengage. --Buckboard 22:12, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


"first of all the airspeed is king in any non-turning fight." By definitition a dog fight is a turning fight. BVR and even blowing through a merge is not considered a dogfight.

"Pilots are taught about corner velocity, which is the maximum rate of turn which a plane can maintain for prolonged periods." Turn rate is is the airspeed at which maximum turn rate can be achieved. This can not by typically sustained for long periods, although some fighters are better at this than others.


"There continue to be dog fights in present-day air combat." Find me an actual dogfight anywhere in the world in the last 10 years. Be careful about your definition of dogfight. As I pointed out above a dogfight is an ACM engagment that takes place within visual range and both fighters turn more than 180 degrees during the fight. I'll agree with your premise though, dogfights are certainly possible even with modern technology and should be trained to (and are in the U.S).

"why would military colleges still teach the techniques?" What do you mean by military colleges? By the most common definition, Annapolis, West Point, and the AF Academy, you are wrong. The students there aren't even pilots yet, why would anyone teach them dogfighting manuevers? If you meant Top Gun and the AF Fighter Weapons school, you would be correct, but those aren't considered "colleges". Stanleywinthrop 19:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stub

What more is needed to get the stub removed? I find the article ok now, but want some other opinions before removing the stub-tag.


  • I find it illogical to mention fictional space dogfighting. The assesment that if a spacecraft turned around while moving accoring to newtons law that what is in motion stays in motion is correct, but it is also correct that the spacecraft following will stay at the same speed (just as the turned around spacecraft) if his throttle is off. BUT, if the following space craft decides to throttle he will go just that much faster and easily catch the spacecraft that is turned around. The turned around space craft is a sitting duck!

please remove any fictional references that give no context to the history or tactics of dogfighting.

I agree--removedStanleywinthrop 12:09, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

[edit] Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
  • Support; dogfight as it is now can be moved to dogfight (film), this article be moved there instead. dewet|™ 07:45, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Support: A search on Google reveals more hits for "dogfight" than for "dog fight", and the term "dog fight" probably has more use in other meanings of the word. Jonas Viper 22:53, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Support as above. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 23:35, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Done. —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 07:36, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] F-22 Price?

That price figure for the F-22 is wrong first of all and unnecessary to the topic. Therefore I'm taking it down.

[edit] Battle of Britain

This article seems to be under the misapprehension that WW2 started with the bombing of Pearl Harbor. The Spitfire was not developed later in the war, but before the war. The Battle of Britain was the first major aerial battle between 2 fairly evenly matched sides, yet it isn't even mentioned.

The article in the World War 2 section is centered in the United States participation, please add more information of The battle of Britain, the Eastern front or others theathers.

Nor is the Falklands war, which demonstrated the continuing importance of manouverability in a close-quarters fight, in the early 1980's. I thought about correcting the article, but it requires such a fundamental re-write that this would be pointless. Countersubject 22:47, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Battle of Britain 2

ya the battle of britian should be included, but it wasn't that evenly mached at first the Germans had overwellming numbers but the British were able to hang on due to radar giveing the British advanced warrning allowing them to mass their forces to meet the invaders, a breaf history of this battle should be made. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.228.26.188 (talk) 03:06, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mike Vick

Is there an article about the contrast of aerial dogfight, bodog, bodogfight, Mike Vick, et al?

Thank You,

[[ hopiakuta | [[ [[ %c2%a1 ]] [[ %c2%bf ]] [[ %7e%7e ]] ~~ -]] 04:14, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

There should be.

[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 05:35, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Half the picture?

The article informed me -- complete layman that I am -- well of the basics of the evolution of dogfighting in the deployments of American fighters, with some nods given to allies or enemies of the relative wars. I suspect that this historical perspective is appropriate, but wouldn't it make more sense to divorce the article from the American perspective and to try to discuss the development of dogfighting as it occured in all participating nations? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.184.211.222 (talk) 18:31, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Dog Fucking

Someone is claiming that the term "dog fucking" was the original term for "dog fighting". Can anyone provide some sources? I'd like to avoid a revert war. --UnneededAplomb (talk) 20:02, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Definition

I think it's important to point out there is more than one definition of 'dogfight' floating around here. I agree with this definition as 'aerial combat between fighter aircraft'.

There are other definitions floating about, I think to sell some propaganda or product. For example the controversial propagandic American series "Dogfights" where unarmed Liason and Transport planes are high-lighted in their tales.

To do that, you'd have to go with the wording 'combat between military aircraft' as I'm not sure you could call a Liason plane a 'warplane'. This would allow for the inclusion of bombers, attack planes and armed recons for example. But then you start stretching things like the TV series "Dogfights"; if you include unarmed Liason and Transport planes, would you include(armed or not) Zeppelins, Dirigibles even spotter/recon balloons? some of which had weaponry in fact, some not.

Again, I prefer this author's definition of combat between fighter aircraft.Befuddler (talk) 05:25, 19 May 2008 (UTC)