Talk:Doctor of Philosophy

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[edit] Archives

Archive 1 - Page creation through December 2006.

Archive 2 - January 2007 - December 2007.

[edit] Tidying up reference section

I tried to tidy the references section a little tonight, adding the publication date for the text "How to Get a Ph.D." by Phillips and Pugh, and giving this source its ISBN. I have also added a reference to an article by Dinham and Scott (2001) that appeared in the "Journal of Further and Higher Education" that is relevant to this subject. Please note that the ISSN which I gave for this journal is only for the printed form; it has a different ISSN in its online version. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 20:27, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal

I have proposed that PhD Candidate be merged into this article. Is there any objections? --Kannie | talk 03:01, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Definitely, although it needs some serious modification to give a better worldwide view rather than what appears to be a predominantly US one (it certainly looks like the setup in Piled Higher and Deeper). Here in the UK there's no real concept of "All But Dissertation" - the PhD is nearly always all research based and people undertaking it consider themselves "PhD students" from day one, whatever the legal fiction of their MPhil registration. There's "writing-up" I suppose but that's a very different thing and the thesis is submitted before the viva. Timrollpickering (talk) 09:20, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good to me, although as Timrollpickering says, the article PhD Candidate isn't necessarily relevant outside the US, so perhaps the best thing to do would be to make it another subsection of the United States section -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 00:28, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] the article saying that one abbreviation is British English and one is American English doesn't seem correct

I am a PhD student in the UK and have always read that 'PhD' is an informal abbreviation but every candidate should know that 'Ph.D.' is the correct form for formal uses. The British/American distinction seems overly simplified if not plain wrong.82.42.207.235 (talk) 17:10, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

This is not my experience (as another PhD student) at all. I've certainly never been told this and looking at several UK institutions' style guides it seems the recommended formal use is very much for "PhD":
York says "No full stops - Eg USA, UK, MA, PhD, etc, eg, 20 per cent" http://www.york.ac.uk/admin/presspr/ppr/styleguide.pdf
Edinburgh gives a list of degree abbreviations includig "PhD" http://www.cam.ed.ac.uk/documents/University-of-Edinburgh-Editorial-Style-Guide.pdf
London Met has a table of "wrong" and "right" forms with "Ph.D" listed as "wrong" and "PhD" as "right" http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/staff/corporate-identity/web/guides/editorial.cfm
Manchester recommends against periods http://www.staffnet.manchester.ac.uk/webhandbook/content/atoz/
Oxford (not known for being a place of change and which, for that matter, doesn't call their own degree "PhD") gives it as "PhD" http://www.ox.ac.uk/staff/branding_toolkit/writing_and_style_guide/index.html#aabbreviations_acronyms
Sheffield uses "PhD" http://www.shef.ac.uk/content/1/c6/01/22/19/Styleguide.pdf
Queen's says "Omit full stops from degree titles (BA, MA, MSc, PhD)" http://www.qub.ac.uk/archive/info/Queen's_Style_Guide.pdf
Style guides aren't the work of one random hack in the university; they are the formal editorial policy of the institution and reflect thought being given to these very points. Whilst they may not always be followed 100% by the institution's own staff (especially given how devolved website control often is), they are the nearest to a clear statement of use on the matter.
On the wider point, it is increasingly very much the case that full stops are not used in acronyms in British English, although I have seen a few exceptions, usually influenced by older teaching. Timrollpickering (talk) 17:50, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
The rule in British English is as follows: if the work is truncated, use a full stop; if the word is shortened (but the last letter remains), do not use a full stop. Thus "Doctor" becomes "Dr" but "Professor" becomes "Prof.". Thus it should be "Ph.D." in UK English. But, of course, rules were made to be broken... KarenSutherland (talk) 11:11, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Training for supervisors - Remove?

The section in this this article "Training for Supervisors" seems to be a bit off topic. What does everyone think about it? Keep, shorten, remove? -Nicktalk 22:06, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

As the person who created this section, you may be interested to know my thoughts. You may notice, if you look at the history of these Discussion pages, I raised the need for the article to cover training for Ph.D. supervision. However, if you feel that this is not the focal point of the article covered here, perhaps a new article "Doctoral supervision" (or words to that effect) could be created. The section as it appears here could then be shortened, and be preceded by a sub-heading saying "Main article: Doctoral supervision". Alternatively, this could go in an existing article in Wikipedia on a topic to do with higher education. I really think that the section belongs in Wikipedia somewhere - the question which is now opened to discussion is "Where"? ACEOREVIVED (talk) 22:27, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

RemoveThe section doesn't seem to fit. How many Universities actually require mentors to be trained? Is this a universally accepted practice or only limited to a few universities? Is this thought just the opinion of a few authors? Demantos (talk) 15:29, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I say remove also. This is really an off topic section. A link, say in a "see also" section, to an appropriate article would not be out of place. --C S (talk) 11:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 'Grand PhD' diploma mills

Should these be included in some way? [1] which is a diploma mill [2] but some unexpected people have their 'degrees'.--Doug Weller (talk) 10:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Funding edit war

This message is to the anonymous editor adding the info about PhD students being slaves, etc. Please note that one of the major rules of Wikipedia is it's Neutral Point of View policy. This means that everything must be written in a neutral tone. The language you added is far from neutral and reflects a clear opinion on your part, for example:

  • "The sufferings of PhD students are usually compounded as their studies can force them off the lower rungs of a promising career ladder, scuppering any hope of a copious salary

In addition, some of the things you mention are patently incorrect. For example:

  • '...invariably PhD students are destined to become slaves to research programmes and methods." It is quite foolish to assert that anything happens "invariably." This is clearly an opinion (indeed and opinion shared by a number of students), and your source doesn't even come close to demonstrating that your statement is correct.
  • They are a cheap source of labor and status for institutions and faculty and, after they earn their degrees, most join the reserve army of the academic underemployed. Here you assert that 1) grad students are a cheap source of labor, and 2) most Ph.D. graduates are underemployed. The expense of grad students is debatable (for teaching purposes, for example, it is usually cheaper to hire and adjunct rather than pay a graduate student's stipend). Second, you must define what you mean by "underemployed;" I'm not sure what you mean by it. Also, I think your statements are specific to certain fields, and also to graduates of certain programs. For example, I know that Ph.D. graduates in the humanities (english, history, philosophy, etc) are having a tough time finding academic jobs, especially when they are graduates of lower-ranked programs. On the other hand, graduates of more established programs in the social and natural sciences are doing a bit better. Also it is worth noting that simply making it through a PhD program does not entitle anyone to a high-end academic job.

Overall, your additions demonstrate a clear POV. I think it would be useful to include some things about jobs and funding, but the things you wrote simply won't do. I think you should rewrite them in the most objective, neutral way possible and add them to the appropriate country section, also taking into account the differences among programs, schools, and fields of study. Until then, your additions will continue to be reverted by the various editors of wikipedia (and a few automated scripts that will prevent multiple reversions). -Nicktalk 04:05, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Semi-Protection

The article has been semi-protected for a week. Please use the talk page to discuss contentious edits. Spartaz Humbug! 06:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)