Talk:Design

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[edit] Design Education

This section was both unfounded and incorrect. I have removed it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.158.1.32 (talk) 21:46, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Messy page

I believe this page is a mess, and it needs a top level view to suceed. For now, it would be useful to separate the "See Also" links into some categories. Matt Whyndham 13:35, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I organized the "see also" section. I'm not married to the category labels if anyone want to suggest changes. Oicumayberight 06:38, 2 February 2007 (UTC)Th

This page is worse than a mess! It just gets worse. It is not a reliable entry. Yes, I know the response is 'well, be our guest', but it really needs most of what's there to be deleted and someone to start it all over again - and I expect there would be lots of complaints and reverts if someone does so. Nigel Cross 18:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd rather have a messy article than no article at all. Design (in general) is one of those subjects that many are involved in but very few people profess in. I've put a lot of effort on this page in the hopes of just getting people interested in the general subject. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of takers. What do you suggest would be an improvement other than just deleting everything at the risk of having no article at all? Oicumayberight 18:47, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps the "Design disciplines" section of "See also" is large enough to to it's own article? I've been hoping to have some time to help here, but I've gotten bogged down in changing Design methods from an essay to something encyclopedic. --Ronz 18:57, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
That would be better than just deleting material and starting over. Oicumayberight 21:30, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't see a need to start over. I think the progress that's been made with the article is commendable. --Ronz 21:48, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] asera

I've removed some things from the article.

First, I'm trying to expand the philosophical part of the article, and this definition, unfortunately, does not expand to cover all senses of design now discussed in the article:

Design is a process of arriving at a finished work, or as finished as time or energy allows, usually based on an idea/thought/impression.

Second, I'm removing this, because I don't understand why architecture needs special treatment, above and beyond that given to, say, industrial design. Hopefully someone will restore the relevant parts.

When applied to architecture, design is both a noun and a verb. You can design a building, and your building is a design. ... The operative notion is that design embodies the countless nights of thought, iteration and re-design, to approach a level of completeness that all parties can agree upon. In architecture this usually happens when the architect, client, building code inspector, and finally the construction industry can agree to a finished design.

Here are some thoughts that I would like to refine and somehow incorperate into the article: In the realm of the arts, design is more relevent to the applied' arts, such as graphic arts, architechture, product design, ... Design implies a concious effort to create something that is both functional and aesthetically pleasing. For example a graphic artist may design an advertisement poster. This person's job is to communicate the advertisement message (functional aspect) and to make it look good (astetically pleasing). The distinction between pure and applied arts is not completely clear, but we could take Jackson Pollock's splatter paintings as an example of pure art. Sure his art may convey some message, but there are obvious differences between the kind of concrete information in a poster and the message of a Jackson Pollock. Second, I think that a reasonable person would agree that Pollock worked more intuitively than the graphic artist's concious effort to design the poster. This is not to say that Pollock did not have some sort of a priori idea of what he was going to paint before he started (I have no idea whether he did or not). I guess my point is that on the spectrum between pure and applied art, degree of design is the the most important factor. User:Ike9898

I included this in the article with WP:NPOV language. Oicumayberight 00:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

One more comment, on a slightly different vein...one might say that anything that a person makes is designed. To an extent I guess this is true. Things can be well designed or poorly designed. But i would say that something produced with out significant conscious effort is not truely designed. At the moment I am having trouble thinking of uncontroversial examples, so he's a controversial one.... Assuming you agree with mainstream evolutionary therory (as I do) living creatures are not designed, their bodies are the way they are as the result of a natural, unconcious process (evolution). (Please, I realize that not everyone agrees with evolution, let's not discuss that here). User:Ike9898

Many people agree with your assessment that, given the validity of evolutionary theory, living creatures are not designed. Some (e.g. Dennett) disagree, opting to employ design in a broader sense, such that something doesn't need to have had a conscious, sentient designer to be considered designed. I've tried to clarify this somewhat in the article. --Ryguasu 23:13 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)

sounds like design to me. change and adaptation is true, never was in question, but many species require that all their organs and nerves be in a certain place and in certain order and "design." In that it is incorrect to say it is undesigned, especially sense no matter what changes have evolved, the blueprint and function remains the same. You will not see penguins over time evolve into flying birds. Just won't happen. So you could say in the natural world there is an implied design, but an even more uncomfortable topic many wish not to acknowledge due to the controversy, a designer. The second part of the statement is what keeps this observable fact surpressed until a cause can be found for a universe magically being created through natural causes, doesn't fly in the realm of true science and not psuedo or theroretical "science." To avoid an edit war on this article, avoid making any reference to Design Theory because both sides are wrong, equally biased and ignorant, and just stick with what we know, not what we speculate. Science and Religion have never been at odds. It is the starting theological points of that are at odds, not the validity of claims and observations.

[edit] Disambig?

Why has this article got a disambiguation notice? Above (in this talk) there are some fantastic ideas for an article. If I take off the {{disambig}} notice, is it ok to leave the really long "See also" section, which is useful for readers? Any thoughts are welcome.--Commander Keane 17:00, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I wonder, too. Surely Design can stand alone as a topic? The 'article' is a mess as it stands. I'm not so sure about the fantastic-ness of the comments, though. The article should avoid straying into art versus design, and into 'intentional design' (creationism). I think there could be a perfectly straightforward article on Design, and the beginnings are there. Nigel Cross 18:26, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I removed the {{disambig}} tag - it's an article now, maybe it will develop.--Commander Keane 19:11, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Article content

I have revised and rearranged the original bits and pieces of content in order to try to begin a coherent article. It could use more work. I really don't understand what the intention(s) of the author(s) were behind the 'Basic Categories' contents - I don't understand them. Unless anyone can explain, I suggest that they get deleted. Nigel Cross 15:44, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree, and I have deleted them. The code is below if someone wants to revive it:

==Basic categories==

  • [[Image]]
  • [[Function]]
  • [[Morphology]]
Volfy 00:09, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Defining Design

Defining water and its forms=Design

This discussion about trying to define Design is very good to read. from all the the words from Designers, i would like to discuss in layers. Oceans, Sea's,Rivers,Lakes,ponds,Dam waters, tap waters, tank waters and what not? so many names. And names depending upon the states of water, liquid, rain, moisture, dew, ice etc., we try to capture(existing things) and relate it to something (humans). The properties of water are, it takes the shape and form of the container, it takes the color of the container too. That is what i think we are trying to do here, trying to define Design. The Oceans, sea's ... are based on the context. The state rain,moisture... are things with some purpose(function) for the context. From the discussion there is a vague understanding that Desing is transient (thats how it is used individually). The scale and Bandwidth or spectrum is huge and wide respectively. Depending upon intra personal, interpersonal and societal perception, words do not stand the same. So is Design. so can we say defining Design = defining Water ? will it stand similar?

Design is both process and product. Water is mere product. To put it in terms of water, design is to designs what hydraulics is to water.
If you are saying that design is very broad and general, it's true. I think that's reflected in the "see also" section. It would be nice if there was a little more organization of the list rather than just an alphabetical listing of the broader fields mixed with subfields and redundant alternate terms. However, if you are suggesting that we use an abstract metaphor to describe what could be expanded on with literal words, I don't think it would work well, particularly with the scientific analytical types.
What's important about this article is the broader definition without going into too much detail of the individual fields and sub-disciplines. The goal is a little more than what you'd get from a dictionary definition, but a little more generalization and inclusion than what you'd get from only one of the many professional perspectives. Oicumayberight 21:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Some suggested references for the definition of design:

There are some very important authors missing from this definition of design: Bryan Lawson, Michael Brawne, Peter Rowe, Peter Downton, J C Jones, Robin Evans, Christopher Alexander, Donald Schon and Nigel Cross (who has contributed to this page himself). Each of these authors offer constructive definitions of design that are not limited to any particular discipline. I hope this is useful to anyone attempting to revise this section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.95.107 (talk) 04:32, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History of design

What about the history of design? In some ways, design is not a very old profession; the separation of designer and maker only happened in the past 200 years. Industry gave room for a person who could outline a prototype or even just design an object on paper and have a factory produce and assemble it. Unknown user 04:04, 27 November 2006

Good suggestion. I would imagine someone would have to find the first recorded use of the word "design". My guess is that it originated in the industrial revolution. If I were a historian, I would research and write the section myself. Oicumayberight 04:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Odd changes to opening

The latest edit of the opening section was a major change. I've read it several times, and it's not obvious to me why certain words were deleted and included. Here was the version before the edit:

Design, usually considered in the context of the applied arts, engineering, architecture, and other such creative endeavours, is a homonym, used as both a noun and a verb. "Design" as a verb refers to the process of originating and developing a plan for a new object (machine, building, product, etc.). As a noun, "design" is used both for the final plan or proposal (a drawing, model, or other description), or the result of implementing that plan or proposal (the object produced).

Designing normally requires considering aesthetic, functional, and many other aspects of an object, which usually requires considerable research, thought, modeling, interactive adjustment, and re-design.

Design as a process can take many forms depending on the object being designed and the individual or individuals participating.

In philosophy, the abstract noun "design" refers to pattern, or to purpose/purposefulness (or teleology). Design is thus contrasted with purposelessness, randomness, or lack of complexity.

and after 23:33, 28 November 2006 Markwiki:

Design is the manipulation of elements to create a functional and/or pleasing product. It is a homonym, used as both a verb and a noun. "Design" as a verb refers to the process of planning. As a noun, "design" is used for the final plan or final product. The process of designing often includes research and modeling.

The word is most often used in relation to concrete products, such as in the applied arts, engineering, and architecture. In designing concrete items, seven elements are commonly recognized. These are form, mass, shape, line, color, texture and pattern.

In abstract applications, such as philosophy and theology, the noun "design" refers to pattern, or to purpose. Design is thus contrasted with purposelessness, randomness, or lack of complexity. The philosophical study of abstract design is teleology.

Is it just me, or is there a lot of odd changes here?
1) The word "manipulation" often implies a controversial adjustment. A design can be an arrangement as well as an adjustment.
2) I don't see why the examples in the parenthesis were removed. The sentence may have been a little long, but it could have been divided into multiples sentences rather than stripped of the examples.
3) The word "aesthetics" was removed, a simpler word that could include the seven elements.
4) The seven elements seem to be too specific to graphic design, which excludes the other forms and disciplines of design.
5) Functional design is relevant, but was deleted. It isn't clear if or where function is included in the seven elements.
6) Design seems irrelevant to theology unless you are talking about intelligent design, which is a theory, not a known discipline of design. Oicumayberight 09:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted the last two edits including the reference to the teleological argument. There seems to be an association with Intelligent Design, which has no place in this article. This is an article about what is known regarding the various disciplines of design. Oicumayberight 00:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Design process

Why all the definitions etc from Dino Dini 'in a talk at Liverpool University'? It isn't anything new or especially helpful - many people have said similar things before, with more authority. Or am I missing something? Somebody could rewrite it more objectively? Nigel Cross 17:17, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Be my guest to rewrite it more objectively. Oicumayberight 23:39, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

There is a whole field of design research! I am very disappointed by this design entry (in agreement with Nigel Cross). The answer to his request("be my guest...") is too easy, it is also the responsibility of an author of an entry to look for high quality sources and thorough historical background, or isn't it ?

I doubt there is a school on the planet were one could profess in "genera design" in the broadest scope of the word. I doubt there is a widely accepted authority on the meaning of design. I doubt there will ever be a scientific definition of a design process. Are we suggesting that the section be removed? Oicumayberight 19:11, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merges

I moved design process and design philosophy to this page. Oicumayberight 23:57, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Copied talk from design philosophy page
I believe that design process should be split from the article. A number of other processes follow the same principle. Inwind 18:50, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
If there were only one or a few widely accepted design processes, I would agree. However, since there are multiple processes within any one discipline and countless design processes overall, I doubt that a focus or neutrality could be maintained in such an article using such a generic term. Oicumayberight 21:50, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I find it odd to restict Design philosophy to Software engineering only. This should be a very general article IMHO. Patrick L. Goes 12:00, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Design vs Engineering

Oicumayberight: I see you just made a change saying that "engineering is a form of design". I also see that the discussion under the heading "Design versus engineering" includes what appears to be (IMO) a misinterpretation of the two definitions supplied immediately above it. That discussion says that The most significant distinction (is) the application of "scientific and mathematical principles". However, the full definition of Engineering just supplied is The application of scientific and mathematical principles to practical ends such as the design, manufacture, and operation of efficient and economical structures, machines, processes, and systems.

So another important distinction is being ignored altogether, namely that Engineering is a much broader term, which includes Design as just one component of the definition. The two terms are not equivalent, because Design does not include Engineering. And while one might (speaking very loosely) say that design was a form of engineering, I believe it would be much more accurate to say that design is an aspect of engineering. And one certainly cannot say that engineering is a form of design, because design does not cover the manufacturing and operations aspects of engineering that are included in the definition supplied.

I view this as the general case of the discussion we're having elsewhere about Software Development and Software Design, in which the latter is a subset of the former. And I don't agree with the caption you just (re)wrote, because it is inconsistent with my understanding of the terms, and with their definitions as supplied in the article itself. Regards, Chris Loosley 02:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry if it's seems biased. I see your point that engineering is applied in production as well as design. According to the referenced definition engineering is not a subset of design. That doesn't mean that design is a subset of engineering. They may simply overlap. Both design and engineering are forms of problem solving. Designers don't like submitting to the harsh constraints associated with engineering any more than engineers like the open-ended expectations associated with design. This is a debate that will not be resolved on the wikipedia. I made changes to reflect a contrary and a neutral point of view to both the subsection and the caption.
According to the definition, when math and science is not applied to problem solving, would you still call it engineering? If so what would be the difference between that and design? Oicumayberight 02:45, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I see your point about some kinds of design not ever being a subset of any kind of engineering, and I think your use of "overlapping" is OK. So I agree that you have reworded the article to a neutral POV now, except that production is itself a very imprecise term. (In IT, for example, designers use it to mean "creation," while developers use it to mean "operation". This is because software products are similar to machine tools, which are themselves produced, but are then used in a production line). Engineering (after the design phase) also covers the manufacturing, installation (if required), operation, and ongoing maintenance of the artifact produced. Chris Loosley 03:24, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I expanded the sentence using the word "operations". That should cover any other areas where engineering is applied. I didn't link it to business operations, because business is a narrower scope of the word "operations." Oicumayberight 04:38, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Looks good. No doubt someone will need to wordsmith it further, but you have captured the essence! Chris Loosley 05:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Commercial Character Design?

The Commercial Character Design link under the design disciplines is probably not unique enough to be listed as its own discipline. I'm afraid if we allow that, some will want to list "Greeting Card Design" and every other rare application of communication design. Anyone else with an opinion on this? Oicumayberight 03:06, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed sections

I removed the section on "Design Pollution" from the terminology section. It has little to do with terminology. Pollution is not a common term to describe bad design. The section also lacked WP:NPOV by implying that bad design is rarely if ever the fault of the designer. Oicumayberight 19:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)