Talk:Derinkuyu Underground City

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[edit] What's the actual size of the city?

Article states "2000 sq. ft, total size 7000 sq. ft." That's the size of one to three single-family homes in the US. I find it very difficult to believe that 3,000 to 50,000 people could be housed in such a tiny area! Can someone please find the actual dimensions of the city?

Bigtrick 17:36, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please distinguish wheat and chaff

This article needs a major overhaul. There is much included not strictly relevant to Derinkuyu (e.g. the section on St. Basil at the end). Much of it seems to have been cobbled together from other articles. Some misinformation from the Turkish Ministry of Culture website has been taken as fact.

I would like to see the evidence for Phrygians digging holes in the ground at remote Derinkuyu. Derinkuyu was not a hiding place for persecuted Christians during the Roman period. These cities may date from the time of Sassanian invasion in the 7th century. Without question their period of greatest utility was at the time of the Arab invasions. There is an ugly 19th century Greek church near the entrance to the underground city.

I have looked from time to time in academic libraries for a book or article about Derinkuyu. To date I have found nothing. Does anyone know if the excavations at Derinkuyu have been published anywhere? Aramgar 16:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I found the following citation which looks like it might be helpful: Martin Urban,"Das Rätsel der unterirdischen Städte Südostanatoliens," Zeitschrift für europäsiche Vorgeschichte Nr. 6-8; Pinneberg, 1973.
Other bibliography on Cappadocia is at [1], though most of it seems to be on the churches with a fair amount of not very useful tourist literature. Aramgar 16:56, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] OK Heres alittle google for you

Cappadocia is where East meets West, setting the stage for bloody battles and ruthless land wars. This landscape in modern day Turkey is unlike any other in the world--with an underground to match. 4000 years ago, a mysterious pagan society called the Hittites dug deep into the soft volcanic rock to carve out an intricate underworld. But after almost 800 years of rule, the Hittite Empire vanished without a trace. Where did their people go and what clues have they left behind in their complex subterranean world? Once the Hittites disappeared, everyone from the Romans to the Persians and the Byzantines to the Ottomans fought to control this land, contributing their own subterranean structures to the layers of fortified castles, sacred sanctuaries, and dungeons hidden beneath the sandy lunar landscape. It was a bloody battlefield, and host Don Wildman explores the subterranean world of defense where entire civilizations hid for thousands of years.

Rating: TVPG

Running Time: 60 minutes

Genre:Mysteries of History http://www.history.com/shows.do?episodeId=228773&action=detail

-Please note the name Phrygians and it's connection Hittites. Everything in this article can be confirmed by watching the History Channel special. If you have not seen it then you can refer to it's content off of the history channels website. Thanks for looking and researching before making uninformed demands and statements. Since your from Turkey you should very well be intune with the common marketing and sales pitches if you don't like them then addresss the government and travel agencies for their inaccuracies. LoveMonkey 03:38, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

As for St Basil how far from Derinkuyu is Kayseri? As for Roman persecutions didn't Julian the Apostate promise to level Cappadocia to Basil's brother Gregory of Nyssa or the other Cappadocian Gregory? LoveMonkey 03:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I, Aramgar, am neither Turk, nor Greek, nor Armenian. Nor am I of any other ethnicity or religious affiliation that could possibly have a suspect position on Anatolian political issues. My only interest here is a sincere desire to discern truth about the legitimately interesting, polyethnic population of mediaeval Anatolia. I consider neither Google hits nor the History Channel legitimate sources for history.
Well if you are not of any such affliation then why edit out all of the Christian attributes? There are valid history that is and can be proven historically. On what grounds is the History channel not considered a source of information? Again the ultimate Wikipedia question- Who are you to invalidate the History Channel as a validat source? Who are you to validate any historical source, why are you so important?

LoveMonkey 13:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

That Hittites, not to say the Phrygians as cited by the Turkish Ministry of Culture, built these underground refuges remains to be cited with authoritative sources. St. Basil was a Cappadocian, certainly; but such an underground village is nowhere mentioned in Basil’s writings nor Vitae. Julian’s persecutions were limited in scope and forced no one underground. Churchmen, both Greek and Syriac, not to mention real live pagans in Antioch, got their lioncloths in a twist, sure. Julian was a consummate blow-hard. If there is anywhere archeological or literary evidence that he actually leveled Cappadocia, I would like to hear about it.
Julian was killed in battle before he could return and make due on the promise. So it stands to reason that Christians where there in Cappadocia before the 7th century. You poor commentary and writing and editing of the article imply that there where no Christians in Cappadocia before the 7th century. Please reply, where there Christians in Cappadocia before the 7th century or not? Don't ask for sources your working on this article you should know the answer.

LoveMonkey 13:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Please, let us talk about what is known about Derinkuyu. Aramgar 05:20, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I ask you please not to just hit "undo." Please leave the grammar and style adjustment intact. Aramgar 06:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Too bad the grammar error are ones from the original source of the Turkish Government once again go complain to them. LoveMonkey 13:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Cappadocia had significant Christian communities, probably as early as the second century. It is likely that Saint Paul passed through Cappadocia; but whereas we are certain that he visited Derbe, Lystra, and Iconium, there is no solid information about the specifics of his travels in Cappadocia. Nowhere did I deny the presence of Christians in this region. They seem to have been the majority from Roman times up until the 1920s. Nor do I take issue with the thesis that Christians used these underground dwellings in times of persecution: they hid there during the seasonal Arab raids of the ninth and tenth centuries and later during the more sporadic attacks of Turkmen nomads (late eleventh through fourteenth centuries). But these Anatolian peasants were not driven underground by the Romans, whose persecutions were far earlier, short-lived, and primarily focused on urban centers.

It should be clear to any high school student that watching a special on The History Channel cannot take the place of consulting reference works and scholarly articles. Moreover, standards of grammar and style for English Wikipedia should be held to a higher level than those acceptable to the Turkish Ministry of Culture: “Turklish” just doesn’t cut it. Aramgar 17:50, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Population

I wanted to insert the current population of Derinkuyu as a comparison of the capacity of the underground city, but our article has no data. Could you add it? Error 23:55, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] See also bloat

LoveMonkey: I disagree that Sümela Monastery and Kaymaklı Monastery ought to be attached to the already too long "See also" list. With the exception of the scholar Spiro Kostof, all of the other sites are in Cappedocia. Sumela and Kaymaakli are in the Pontus. Let us limit the "See also" list to those sites directly related, both temporally and geographically, to Derinkuyu. Regards, Aramgar (talk) 16:35, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The article is written for an English Wikipedia that has an audence outside of the middle east. The sites are all connected in that they are tourist attractions for Westerns. The sites are all Christian in some relation, and the sites are all in Turkey. The article is so small already that it seems that anything related to it would expand the article, so bloat appears as inappropriate term. LoveMonkey (talk) 17:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
LoveMonkey: I will have to disagree with you. According to WP:NOT, Wikipedia is not a travel guide. If we were to list every Christian monument in Anatolia that might be of interest to tourists, we would have a very long "See also" list indeed. Sümela Monastery and Kaymaklı Monastery are in the Pontus and do not belong. Regards, Aramgar (talk) 20:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Alright fair enough, if you think they should be removed then go ahead and remove them. I was hoping to add more areas to wikipedia about the underground cities and create enough to have a small category as such, but if you think the correlation between the sites too much of a stretch then so be it. LoveMonkey (talk) 20:12, 31 January 2008 (UTC)