Talk:Der Ring des Nibelungen/Comments

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B class. Coverage of Wagner's ring is shared with six other articles: Das Rheingold, Die Walküre and Siegfried Götterdämmerung, (Der Ring des Nibelungen, Der Ring des Nibelungen: Composition of the text, and Der Ring des Nibelungen: Composition of the music As before, I've 'credited' it with the information in the other Ring articles). However it could benefit from minimizing the overlap with the other pages, and also:

  • A full discography including historic recordings (which should perhaps go on a new, separate page)
  • More illustrations

-- Kleinzach 15:26, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

B class. Agree with Kleinzach's comments. Also:

  • Some more thought needs to be given to the overall structure of the combined articles and the relationship between this article and the others listed above. In particular, more useful links to and (especially) from the individual operas and the three Ring articles are needed so that anyone interested in (say) Die Walküre can easily access relevant information in the related articles.
  • More detail needed in individual items in the discography
  • Is the full list of roles really needed here?

--GuillaumeTell 10:04, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

55/100 This article has been written in Summary Style, therefore this assessment is made with that in mind. On these marks the article is in the top section of Start class, but I'm inclined to go along with above views that it is a B.

Given the current level of achievement and the improtance of the Ring itself, we should be thinking of working towards nominating this article for GA status. There is a fair amount of work needed first. I recommend reading Wikipedia:What is a good article?. Reviewers are particularly keen on appropriate fair use of pictures, on referencing, on the lead section being a summary, and on a good writing. As an example of a comment failing point 2 at WIAGA, "a full understanding of the story of the Ring cycle requires attendance at all four operas" requires a citation. On the writing of the article as a whole, I note that reference is made to the size of an orchestra three times. This is excessive and would get picked up at GA.

Here are specific comments against the WP:Wagner marking scheme.

  • Background/history of composition/discussion of plot and/or text, etc. 10/15: Reasonably good, but I would expect Feuerbach and Schopenhauer both to get a mention. Stabreim should me mentioned before the translation that uses it.
  • Performance history, including recent performance history and creators of role 10/15: Again pretty thorough. The Bayreuth role creators could be included here. The discussions of performance are a bit listy. I think a GA reviewer would expect some critical discussion based on reviews and secondary sources.
  • Tabulated list of roles 3/5. I disagree with GT and feel that the list of roles should be included here. But this should be tabulated with premiere singer's names.
  • Synopsis 5/10. I would expect a bit more detail here even with summary style. One paragraph an opera like this: "After being rejected by the Rhinemaidens, Alberich decides to steal the Rhinegold from them. He curses love and in so doing is able to forge the gold into a Ring that gives him power over others. Meanwhile the giants have built the castle Valhalla for the gods. Wotan, who is meant to rule the world through law and justice, has initially agreed to trade the godess Freia for the castle in the expectation that Loge would find something else the giants would prefer. The giants agree to accept the treasure of the Nibelungs instead, if the gods get for them. Reluctantly Wotan agrees to go to Nibelheim with Loge to get it. There Alberich has enslaved the other Nibelungs including his brother who has made for him the Tarnhelm, a magic helmet. Loge tricks Alberich so that Wotan is able to catch him. Alberich is forced to give up the gold including the Tarnhelm and the Ring. Wotan tries to keep the Ring for himself when the giants demand him, but gives it up when warned by Erda that his actions threaten the power of the gods. The giants argue over the Ring and the murdered Fasolt becomes the curse's first victim. Loge decides to abandon Wotan because he has betrayed his principles and failed to return the Ring to the Rhinemaidens."
  • Notable arias etc. 4/10 Do mention 4 sub-operas. Whilst, I don't think specific arias need to be named, it might be worth saying that certain "bleeding chunks" like the Ride of the Valkyries get played on their own and that there have been attempts by conductors to produce orchestral summaries. ("Ring without words", Stokowski's efforts...)
  • Critical appreciation, discussion of music etc 10/15. Again pretty good. I think the existence of extended orchestral passages could be clarified further. Given Redemption through love is named, it should be made clear that Wagner called this the Glorification of Brunnhilde. Someoen (Lorenz?) discusses the Ring as sumphonic - mentioned i think in Cooke.
  • Recordings 7/10. It's at that funny length where its long but not complete. Moralt is the obvious absentee as the first studio recording. I think a separate page could help in which the cast details can be given. Then here we can have a summary noting particularly significant recordings: e.g. Solti as first studio stereo recording, Krauss as heavilly recommending in Gramophone etc.
  • Illustrations, including musical illustrations 1/10. An attempt has been made to illustrate the article, but the picture is copyright and there is (and will be) no fair use justification. Some older illustrations needed. Also musical ones. e.g. "Redemption through love is mentioned, transformation of Ring motif to Valhalla). Use has to be within Wikipedia's policy, or out of copyright.
  • Inline references, notes, sources, external links 5/15 Good bibliography. Need more inline references especially when interpretations given or views are mentioned. Need more external links.

--Peter cohen 17:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)