Talk:Demosthenes

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Featured article star Demosthenes is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
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To-do list for Demosthenes: edit · history · watch · refresh

Style

  • To expand the lead to conform with guidelines at WP:LEAD.
  • To improve photo captions.
  • To make sub-headings more informative.
  • To choose a consistent verb tense.

Copy-editing suggestions

  • To tighten the copy a little.
  • To direct the reader to daughter articles with more in-depth information on some topics.
  • To correct flowery language that's uncomfortably close to POV.
  • To take care of a number of terms which are unexplained.
  • To write or expand separate daughter articles on certain specific topics, and substantially shorten the sections on those topics in the Demosthenes articles.
  • To correct elegant variation — using pronouns, ellipses, and repetition when it's not tedious.
Maintained The following user(s) are actively involved with this article and may be able to help with questions about verification and sources:
Yannismarou (talk • contribs • email)
This in no way implies article ownership; all editors are encouraged to contribute.
Peer review This History article has been selected for Version 0.5 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia. It has been rated GA-Class on the assessment scale (comments).

Contents

[edit] a noteworthy quote

Diogenes remarked of Demosthenes that he was "A Scythian in his speeches but a gentleman on the battlefied" (Davenport, 1995.) A2e1k 05:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] dated

This material is clearly dated, not identified to source (so we can't tell if it's copyrighted or not, though I suspect it's old enough not to be), and doesn't serve as a useful encyclopedia article. Someone might use some of this text to make a real article though, so I'll leave it here in talk. --Lee Daniel Crocker

[edit] other Demosthenes

Among the operations of the sixth summer of the Peloponnesian wars was a campaign which the Athenian commander Demosthenes conducted in Aetolia-successful at the outset, but terminating in disaster, which made the general afraid to return to Athens. He seized a chance, however, of recovering his credit by foiling a Lacedaemonian expedition against Naupactus; and in other ways he successfully established a high military reputation, so that he was no longer afraid to reappear at Athens. jhgjhj Next year, the Athenians dispatched a larger fleet, with Sicily for its objective. Demosthenes, however, who had a project of his own in view, was given an independent command. He was thus enabled to seize and fortify Pylos, a position on the south-west of Peloponnese, with a harbour sheltered by the isle of Sphacteria. The Spartans, in alarm, withdrew their invading force from Attica, and attempted to recover Pylos, landing over 400 of their best men on Sphacteria. The locality now became the scene of a desperate struggle, which finally resulted in the Spartans on Sphacteria being completely isolated.

So seriously did the Lacedaemonians regard this blow that they invited the Athenians to make peace virtually on terms of an equal alliance; but the Athenians were now so confident of a triumphant issue that they refused the terms--chiefly at the instigation of Cleon. Some supplies, however, were got into Sphacteria, owing to the high rewards offered by the Lacedaemonians for successful blockade-running.

At this moment, Cleon, the Athenian demagogue, having rashly declared that he could easily capture Sphacteria, was taken at his word and sent to do it. He had the wit, however, to choose Demosthenes for his colleague, and to take precisely the kind of troops Demosthenes wanted; with the result that within twenty days the Spartans found themselves with no other alternatives than annihilation or surrender. Their choice of the latter was an overwhelming blow to Lacedaemonian prestige.

(This material refers to Demosthenes the general, not to the orator. Flounderer 02:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC))

Two things are needed: A separate article on this other Demosthenes, and a disambiguation page. Das Baz 16:44, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ender's Game

I don't see the point of the reference to the use of the name 'Demosthenes' in S.F. novels, and especially not of the addition of [[Category:Enderverse characters]]. The Demosthenes of this article isn't a character in the novels. It seems clear that the Category should be removed, but would anyone object to the removal of the reference to them? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:30, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Ender's Game is rated High-Importance by WikiProject Novels, but I don't know if that has any meaning over here. In any case, Demosthenes (fictional character) should be referred to more explicitly. It took me a while to find the one sentence and 'see also' link. --Cheeesemonger 14:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Demosthenes and sex

" Demosthenes, like many prominent Greeks of his era, is said to have engaged in sex with men, and it was suggested that he may have engaged in the prostitution of youth (Aiskhines iii 162): "There is a certain Aristion, a Plataean..., who as a youth was oustandingly good-looking and lived for a long time in Demosthenes' house. Allegations about the part he was playing [lit., 'undergoing or doing what'] there vary, and it would be most unseemly for me to talk about it." (Dover, 1989) "


This material does not belong in the article, at least in this form. It might have relevance in an entry on Athenian political invective or Athenian sexuality, but is too insubstantial to form part of an account of D's life. Athenian politicians were free at hurling abuse at each, in particular charges that their opponent had once prostituted himself or accepted payment from older men for sex (similar but of stronger implication than the suggestion in the quote above that D. as an adult may have had receptive anal sex with a younger male) . This could be the basis of a serious charge since men who have prostituted themselves could be barred from addressing the assembly (death to a political career), but mostly they are just mouthing off at each other: the stuff is interesting culturally but it's just froth when it comes to writing a biographical note. Forgive the parody but a modern equivalent, might go like this: "LIke many modern western men, Ted Republican is said to have lied about his tax deductions. According to Bob Democrat, speaking in a noisy bar the other night, that big red SUV Ted claims as a work car is actually being driven by his daughter..." Flounderer 00:07, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

It's also false, as sex with men was no more usual than it is now, and deprecated (romantic and sexual relationships with boys was another matter). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:20, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

K. J. Dover raises the topic of D's relationship with Aristarchus, whose erastes he seems to have been. One argument brought up (by Aiskhines) is not that D is "bad" for having been the erastes, but for having been a bad erastes and not followed the principles of proper eros by not being sufficiently altruistic. I do not see how this can be left out of the article in the section about his personal life, as well as other material bearing on this aspect of his life and personality. Haiduc 10:50, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I donot think that homosexuality (in the sense of παιδικός έρως=relation between a εραστής and a ερωμένος) is such a big issue, since it was part of everyday life in the life of men in ancient Greece. And why Demosthenes alleged relation with Aristarchus is an important issue for Demosthenes' biography? And how can we introduce such an issue to the article? Anyway... I donot know the book, but if you want to edit, do it, mention your sources and we'll see ...--Yannismarou 07:09, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Statue date

The caption of the picture of the statue showing an adult Demosthenes states that the original dates from 380 BC, when Demosthenes would have been four years old. I'm not a Greek scholar or anything, but there's something there that just doesn't quite fit. Can't put my finger on it. Kai 04:21, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References and/or Further Reading

Where is the difference between "References" and "Further Reading"? If there is non (as I assume), why are there two different sections? --Bender235 00:36, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

There is an obvious difference. The referenced bibliography is inline citated within the articles (See Citation). The further reading biography is not used or citated within the article, but it is suggested for further reading, in case somebody wants to learn more things. This is not the only article where there is a clear distinction between Ref and Further Reading.--Yannismarou 07:07, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Does it make any sense to recommend a let's say comprehensive biography of Demosthenes for further reading, but not using it in citations? Anyway, if that's the current method, I don't care. --Bender235 12:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some comments

As requested by Yannismarou, I have had a good look through the article. It is clearly well written, but I will point out a couple of things which I think could use improvement:

  • I don't remember reading in the article how we modern people know about his orations. Did he write them down himself, did someone else write them down for him, are there original manuscripts available or later copies?
  • Done. I also created a sub-page with more details.--Yannismarou 15:04, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  • In a couple of places you have "but probably" (and perhaps similar words) with a citation link at the end of the sentence. But you should really mention who thinks it's probably, or if it's a popular opinion with historians state that it's a popular opinion. Probably is not certainty, but if you just keep saying "probably" in the article yourself without anything futher it may seem like you're supporting some single historian's view, or some disputed view. Just giving a reference is not enough to clarify this, if you can't explain it in-line with the text maybe add a note explaining it.
Tried to resolve that.--Yannismarou 13:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  • You mention a lot of names usually without giving much explanation on who the people are. They are usually wikilinked, but for the figures on which you talk quite a bit about you should mention who they are - it is impossible for a reader to follow and read all the wikilinks. This applies to both cited historians and to historical figures.
  • Tried to resolve that.--Yannismarou 13:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  • The second image from the top Image:Demosthenes_statue.jpg has had no source since 1st of April, so it could be deleted instantly by any admin. Needs to be removed and replaced.
  • Removed and replaced.--Yannismarou 10:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I realise that this is my fault for using a different browser (Opera), and increased font sizes, but the quote boxes are not the same as they would be in Firefox and don't resize dynamically as you change the window size. So if I read from a decreased window size, the boxes tend to take up the full width.
  • A slightly different issue with the quote boxes, with the current background colour the text tends to be quite hard to read on some LCD monitors for some reason. A lighter tone would be helpful.

I hope this helps.--Konstable 13:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA granted

2 minor points can be changed in a jiffy for style improvement :

  • "lex orandi" and underscored that "inter omnes unus excellat." is some wonderful latin though having it in english would help the reader.
  • Some people come into action within the life of Demosthenes and almost no background information is given or why they are mentioned. See Curtius for example. There are a few others scattered through the text. Lincher 00:33, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Tried to resolve that.--Yannismarou 13:50, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
    • Thanks. Both your suggestions and those of Konstable are very useful and I intend to implement them.--Yannismarou 06:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
      • No problem, come to my talk page for more info or go straight to FA for further insight in what could be missing (beware of the FA gorillas, their tough ;) Lincher 01:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wow! Great article

I was just working on an article about one of Demosthenes' contemporaries and came here for some background info. I was going to nominiate it for FA, but since this is apparently somebody else's baby, I'll let them do the honors.--*Kat* 07:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Thanks! I intend to nominate it soon, but there are still some pendent issues and I want them resolved, before I go to the demanding proceedure of FA. Mainly, tweaks and minor stuff, but I don't want bad surprises, when I am in FAC.--Yannismarou 07:11, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  • By the way, if you need any help with the article you're writing, just tell me.--Yannismarou 07:13, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, I may take you up on that. --*Kat* 04:28, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mary Renault on Demosthenes

Demosthenes is the villain in Fire from Heaven by Mary Renault. He appears as a lustful creep and arrogant lout who tries to sexually abuse the very young Alexander but gets a humiliating comeuppance. Thus Renault explains two historical mysteries: Why Demosthenes had such passionate hatred for a very young boy, and why the talented orator was left totally speechless and unable to deliver his prepared speech before King Phillip. Das Baz 16:51, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I know, my friend. See Demosthenes (fictional character) and you'll see I've mentioned all these things.--Yannismarou 09:44, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Yannismarou. I thought the information had all been deleted. I did not realize that the article (which I originally created) had been recreated. Such vindication is so excellent. Das Baz 17:12, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minor Sentence Flow Change

In the Rhetorical legacy section, the sentence "For his part, Nietzsche was often composing his sentences according to the paradigms he found in Demosthenes, whose style he admired." has inelegant tense usage and possessive usage. It was changed to "For his part, Nietzsche often composed his sentences according to the paradigms of Demosthenes, whose style he admired."

[edit] Alexander's demands regarding Demosthenes in 335 BC

The article use to say that, following the razing of Thebes in 335 BC, Alexander,

… demanded the exile of all anti-Macedonian politicians, Demosthenes first of all, a request turned down by the ecclesia.

I've now changed this to:

… demanded the exile of all anti-Macedonian politicians, Demosthenes first of all. According to Plutarch, a special Athenian embassy led by Phocion, an opponent of the anti-Macedonian faction, was able to persuade Alexander to relent.

I've based this change solely on the cited reference, Plutarch, Phocion 17. Does anyone have sources which say that the request was simply "turned down by the ecclesia"?

Paul August ☎ 18:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Our sources are the same, but I agree that your wording is more accurate.--Yannismarou 17:22, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, thanks for the response. Paul August ☎ 19:06, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree; see Arrian i. 10, that I resumed at Talk:Alexander the Great.--Aldux 20:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Incomplete article displayed

Why does my web browser only show the article up to Confronting Alexander and delivering On the Crown? The contents even do not list anything after this section. I am disappointed because I want to read the remaining part of the article. 211.28.237.149 08:20, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

A user, trying to copy-edit the article, created this mess; the article is now restored.--Yannismarou 08:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inheritance

The value listed in US dollars is 400,000, and I can't help but wonder if that is in 1952 dollars as that is when the source was written. If it was, the current value would be around 3 million of todays dollars. Could someone check on this?74.130.23.77 21:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pederasty in the life of Demosthenes

Yannismarou, thank you for reminding me of that old conversation. I had utterly forgotten about it, and it certainly sweetens the pot, so to speak. It seems to me quite clear that in ancient Greece a man's relations with his eromenoi were a lot more important politically than those with his wife. Men mattered, women less so. So by that measure, favoring here a discussion of his marriage while deleting all mentions of his pederastic affairs is nothing other than an ethnocentric imposition on a personage from a culture with values different from those being imposed on him now. In effect you are modernizing and westernizing Demosthenes. Is that a reasonable thing to do? AND, if some scholar or other asserts that a given statement about his relations is a "slur" then that too needs to be included in the article, first because slurs are part of his history and important to our understanding of his life and the forces at work within it, and second, because it is one man's opinion and it may be contradicted by the next scholar to express himself on this topic.

Furthermore, it is particularly significant that Demosthenes is associated with a number of different eromenoi. I count three at the present. All the more reason that readers have access to this information. Haiduc 23:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Haiduc, the particular erastes-eromenos relationship you included is of no political interest. Who cares if Demosthenes had an extra-marital relationship, and if his wife slept with this man in order to take revenge?! These are gossips; not encyclopedical material. It is the same thing, if we write that Jacques Chirac cheated on his wife with three women and two men, and then she had a hysteria because of that! This not encyclopedic material! Besides the fact that Athenaeus is used in mixing truth with gossips. This is my problem; neither "ethnocentricity" nor "westernization". And the only thing I say about his personal life is that he was married, and that he had a daughter, whose death and the subsequent attitude of Demosthenes became a political issue because of Aeschines. This is encyclopedic material; not his extra-marital affair (presented again inaccurately by you as a famous erastes-eromenos relationship of antiquity in another article?!!!) with some guy, called Cnosion, having 55 links in Google and even less in Google Book! I'm sorry, but this is just not notable!--Yannismarou 08:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Yannismarou, I will not insist on documenting his aspect of Demosthenes' life if you are so opposed to it, but let me at least point out a number of inconsistencies (with project practices) in your last message.

  1. "no political interest" is not, to my knowledge, sufficient reason for exclusion of information - our readers' need to know may well extend beyond what you or I consider political interest.
  2. "who cares" We do not know who cares about this or that aspect of a historical figure's life, but we are not here to guess at that. Somebody may choose to compile a list of great men wearing purple togas, so if that information was forthcoming we would be doing a service to include it as long as space allowed, as is the case here.
  3. "gossisps" For personages about which we know so little, every tidbit, gossip or not, is precious and tells us a bit more about them and their culture, if properly presented.
  4. "mixing up truth" Material which is thought to be unreliable needs to be introduced as such. We are not here to make those decisions for others but to put before them what is known. Will future historians delete from the Wikipedia most of George Bush's statements because they are described by some as being unreliable?
  5. "famous" I am not looking for famous, I am looking for historical, which is self-explanatory.
  6. "55 links" I did not know there was a Google standard for inclusion in Wikipedia, but it does not surprise me - they have their finger in SO many pies! So what is the magic number?

Again, I will not press this further as it is no fun to tread on people's toes, but it does seem a pity to remove this little bit of color from the article - Demosthenes would only be enriched by it, to say nothing of the additional light it throws on the Kata Timarkhos episode. Regards, Haiduc 12:13, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I have thought of a way to perhaps satisfy your wishes as well as mine. I have been gathering all the material I could find on Demosthenes, and there is quite a bit, all of it raunchy and very opinionated, as you would imagine. What do you say we create a category listing "Accusations against Demosthenes" without necessarily giving them any credence, but only for their historical value? You will see much of what I have come up with at the Historical pederastic couples article. Haiduc 22:51, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The cases of Aristarchus and Aristion seem to include interesting biographical elements connected with his public life. Initially, I did not include them (I acknowledge I knew the cases), because they were not connected with Demosthenes' major "purpose of life": the struggle against Philip, and the subsequent rivalry with Aeschines. But if you want to include them, I cannot impede you. Instead of adding a new section, maybe you could add them in one of the existing sections. Anyway ... Make your edits, and then I'll comment on them; finding the correct structure is I suppose something that we'll manage to work. Maybe you could then also create a seperate article per WP:SS, and elaborate on them. Maybe, it is also an opportunity to create articles for some more of Demosthenes' speeches - I worked on some of them for some time, but then I was distracted by other articles and issues (mainly the WP:GREECE).--Yannismarou 07:59, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Done. Let me know what you think. As for spinning off a dedicated article - there is not really enough material, in my opinion. At this point, with this stuff in two separate places already, I think it is enough. Haiduc 01:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
It reads better now, a couple of comments: I would keep the bit about Aeschines having had lovers himself, since it sharpens the focus of the discussion - this is one pederast discussing another pederast. As for Packard's comment, is he alone in this? I have not read him, but I would imagine that what is being questioned is not Demosthenes pederasty but his alleged irresponsibility. Can you bring in some relevant quotes from Packard? Haiduc 10:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

PS Oh, and I would definitely keep in the part about him pretending to be in love with Aristarchus, it is a key element - it was not just the pretense that he could teach him to be an orator. Haiduc 10:45, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi all. If I can add my opinion, we should be careful not to extend further the piece on Demosthenes' personal life, as we risk 1) forgetting that Demosthenes is a politician and an orator, not a guy who fucked x 2) the article is already becoming pretty longish, and me must maintain the blance between the sections. 3) More specifically, the proposal regarding the insertion of Aeschines seems hardly relevant to me.--Aldux 13:12, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
You mean the whole new section? I also am against any further expansion, but do you suggest to trim a bit more this new section, and possibly add it to one of the current sections? Not to add it at all, and leave the article as it was before?--Yannismarou 15:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Since I regard this issue as very important (we speak about a FA whose status should be preserved), and since as the main contributor to this article I cannot be as objective as I would like, I decided to invite to this discussion some of the most prominent classicists of Wikipedia: User:Aldux (he already offered a first comment), User:Robth, User:Paul August, User:Akhilleus, and User:Mel Etitis. I think that their input we'll help us to take the best decisions here.--Yannismarou 15:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External view

I haven't yet read through everything carefully, but there's a real problem with sources for this section. Even the occasional reference is obscure ("Dover op. cit." is unhelpful when Dover is mentioned nowehere else in the article, for example). --Mel Etitis (Talk) 16:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I thought I had removed that for the reason you mention. Am I wrong? Is it still there and I just miss it?--Yannismarou 17:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I got distracted by other things; it was still there, but that's irrelevant now. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 09:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The question for me is to what extent this has been treated as significant/believable by modern commentators. Unsubstantiated character assassination was a standard in most ancient orators' toolkits, and lord knows we wouldn't include (for instance) the stuff Cicero said about some of his opponents in their articles. (I haven't had time to research this, obviously, but from what I'm seeing it appears that our source for all of this is accusations levelled by Aeschines, and picked up as such by later biographers--correct me if I'm wrong.) My suggestion is that, if the attacks are particularly important or relevant, they be placed in the context of the conflict in which they occurred--i.e., treated as political rather than biographical material, which it seems that they were. If they're just run of the mill mudslinging, leave 'em out. As for the relationships themselves (as opposed to the claims of inadequacy or robbery), if those are well substantiated or widely accepted by modern commentators, they would probably merit a line under biography. --RobthTalk 22:30, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

In reverse order of appearance:
  1. Robth, this could get involved, but I will try to be breif. In the early to middle twentieth century historians avoided peering too closely into their subjects' love life, all the more if it was of an illicit color. More recently, with the advent of gender studies, such material has become a legitimate topic of study. Unless and until this article is titled "The Political Life of Demosthenes" this material belongs here and is of historical importance, and it belongs as placed. As for the relationships being well substantiated - Aeschines will do. Please realize that Aeschines is NOT accusing D of keeping boys. He is accusing him of misusing the boys he keeps. It is of no benefit to him to "accuse" D of keeping boys. It would be like me "accusing" you of being married.
  2. Mel, I agree with your observation, especially in light of the dense footnoting of this article. There is more work to be done here, though I would add that those citations are secondary (like Nicodemus' lawsuit and murder, or Aeschines accusing D of profiting from his boys. The Dover cite was an oversight, not a fatal flaw I assume.
  3. Aldux, I see your point about the article being overlong. I would not be adverse if the entire Personal life section is spun off into its own article. I would also retitle this article to indicate its specialization. Haiduc 23:30, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I just took a quick look at this in response to Yannismarou's request, and I don't have a problem with the material as written. However, as Robth points out, it looks like all the accusations originate in speeches of Aeschines--so I think it would be better to cover this material in the section on Demosthenes' political career, as part of the rivalry of D. And Aeschines. I agree, too, that it would be good to investigate modern assessments of these claims, to see whether anyone thinks there's any truth in what Aeschines was saying. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:53, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

It looks much better now; some good work. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 09:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Any objections to including the article in Category:Pederasty in ancient Greece? Haiduc 11:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't really see the point (though I don't see the point of the category either, to be honest). --Mel Etitis (Talk) 20:25, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Live to Fight Another Day" remark

According to [1], Demosthenes is said to be the originator of the saying "He who fights and runs away will live to fight another day," after the defeat at Chaeronea. Seems to attribute it to a reliable source. Would it be worth adding to the article? Pegasus «C¦T» 15:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation?

How is "Demosthenes" pronounced? I think it should be added to the article - it doesn't seem obvious to me. --Aseld talk 20:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)