Talk:Demographics of France

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Can we have a link for this : "One major difference in the recent growth is that most of the growth since the 1970s comes from from Muslim immigration and births rather than growth among the native French." originating from 128.101.160.103 ?

this is false, France demograpy is one of the less dependant from imigration in Europe [1]. Muslim women have 2.2 childs in average and "native" women 1.65.

Contents

[edit] "French People"

I don't understand the disclaimer. The article on the demographics of Italy include all Italians (as per nationality), not just people of some ethnic origins. So why should France be treated differently?

[edit] What is "to be French" ? quick info on the subject

This article is lot better written than French people, which has been rightly nominated for deletion. However, it is to note that according to the French Constitution, to be French means to have acquired French nationality, which is based on jus soli ("right of territory") and not jus sanguinis ("right of blood"), commonly considered in France to be a racist law. Demographics of France will thus have this specificity concerning other entries about demographics that, according to French law, it is forbidden to use the term "Ethnic French" (Français de souche, more often used by the far-right Front national) in official statistics. Thus, it will be impossible to find official French references on this matter, whether by theINED or by the INSEE. Hence, the reference in the introduction to "ethnic stocks" should be removed. Lapaz 19:50, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

La Paz you are now going over the top in your attempts to censor wikipedia...—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.45.176.95 (talk • contribs) January 21 2006.

[edit] French people merge

The French people entry has been nominated for deletion, with a majority of 29 votes approving deletion against 22 refusing it. However, it hasn't been deleted (I didn't know this was possible - so votes for deletion are just... deleted votes?). Merging it here may therefore be the best solution, as demographics concerns population, and the term "French people" designs French population - being constituted by French citizens -. Lapaz 20:50, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

That is you mean constituted by the government of the French Republic. Also, your count is flawed as there are netural "votes" and some people "voted" more than once. Regardless, I don't believe whether this is a "vote" in any way and even if it were, it would require the attention of the entire Wikipedia community (without any one POV advertising the case). I dont believe that 50 or so people should justify whether the article remains or not or whether or not if it is to be merged (there appears to be groups of users who have a far left wing political agenda). The information on race and ethnicity which you have used to support your POV is only one side of that debate and the majority of academics refute much of those theories. The current POV on the topic is equally split and you should not denote other users contributions which oppose your POV as inconsiderate, irrelevant or wrong. Wikipedia is for everyone. Epf 21:16, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, no, Wikipedia is only for relevant POV. It is not for POV of mere Wikipedians. Marc Mongenet 04:15, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Everyone has a relevant POV and to say otherwise is ignorant.

Both of these articles are of a decent but comfortable length and, as their names suggest and their content shows, they cover different topics. Demographics of France is primarily statistical whereas French people takes a more sociological, historical and evolutionary look at the people of France who - as they themselves will say - have a very strong sense of national identity (and likely wouldn't be happy if the page was deleted). And I'm not a hardline Francophile or anything, I just think there's a very strong case for the French people page to remain. Definitely keep them as separate articles. Iancaddy 23:56, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Why is it that Europeans have two articles whereas the US only have their demographics article? I would agree on keeping both here but then the differentiation has to be made more than clear! And this article here needs a major extension! 27 February 2006

[edit] Picture

The passport picture has been added here to put something and clearly show that the French people is whoever has French citizenship, including those living in the French overseas departments and territories. However, it would be good to add another picture showing France's ethnical diversity in a nice way, which often strikes visitors, in particular compared to other European countries such as Spain. I'll add that i don't know how the picture process goes... Lapaz

[edit] French demographic bust

I came to this article hoping to get some insight as to the cause of French demographic exceptionalism. While the article does very well explaining how much France has differed from its European neighbors and debunking 19th century racist explanations, it doesn't explain the cause of this difference well. Could an expert please add to this?

What is the population density of modern France? How does it compare to Britain, Germany, the US, the US east of the Mississippi, Turkey, Italy, India, China, Japan? What factors allowed France to have a much higher population density than Germany in the Middle Ages? Why has Catholic Ireland maintained high birth rates but not Catholic France? David s graff 03:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

This is not a place to ask questions mister, its a place for dialogue about the article, if you think this is important add it into the article somewhere, you don't have to be an expert, just put in what you know and watch it grow, or do some research (non-original) and add and cite this information. 71.142.78.14 23:26, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Qrc2006 23:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

These are good questions; I don't know the cause either. I do know that France's population density is much lower than that of Britain (England in particular) and Germany. Also, France has generally been a less devoutly Catholic country than Ireland - but at any rate, their birthrates are about the same today. Funnyhat 22:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Many questions, enough for a thesis (if you're in for another Ph.D !) Let's just say that although Ireland has remained quite Catholic, France has long forgotten this... which isn't to please some erred-folks called Society of St. Pius X (which our nice pope is bringing back into path, God bless his soul!)... Lapaz

[edit] Out of Place

Several incidents opposed immigrant manpower with the local population. Thus, a pogrom against Italian workers whom worked in the salt evaporation ponds of Peccais erupted in Aigues-Mortes in 1893, killing nine and injuring hundreds on the Italian side (Enzo Barnabà, Le sang des marais, Marseille, 1993)

This does note make sense since it is used to explain the use of immigration for population recovery between the two world wars. I think i'm going to remove it and if anyone disagrees put it back in, but theres probably a better place to do it, or reword it if you do. 71.142.78.14 23:26, 26 August 2006 (UTC) Qrc2006 23:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Immigration issues are relevant in an articles about demographics, IMO. Lapaz

[edit] == Historical population of metropolitan France ==

Some figure are very different with the French version of the article.

-- year 1 (5,500,000 English; 7 000 000 French version)

-- Year 400 (5,500,000 English; 12 000 000 French version)

-- Year 1400 (16,600,000 English; 12 000 000 French version)

And many more... Can someone explain ? Froggy helps ;-) 06:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Please provide sources. French Wiki is not any better than here (actually, most of the times it's worst...) Lapaz
Unfortunately, census wasn't available centuries ago, so these are estimates subject to caution, in addition, numbers may vary depending what territory is considered, the borders of France have expanded quite a bit since the middle ages. 82.231.41.7 (talk) 19:34, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Index-Category box

I was wondering about an index-category box similar to the one in "Demographics of Hong Kong" - something stylish..is this a good idea? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MonsieurAquilone (talk • contribs) 07:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

I don't think so, IMHO. Boxes have a tendency to simplify things, and HK's one is more about culture & music than anything else. We wouldn't even agree on which numbers to put in! :) Lapaz

[edit] This Seems wrong

Also, the proportion of immigrants in France is on par with other European nations such as the United Kingdom (15%) [5], Germany (10%) [6], the Netherlands (20%) [7], Sweden (15%) [8] and Switzerland (19%) [9].

not even the sources it links to back it up

If you see some falsehood, put some [citation needed] tag, or delete on sight! Wikipedia:Be bold! Lapaz
Edited some numbers around, so they correspong with the sources CorneliusStump


[edit] Disclaimer

I have no problem with the content of the disclaimer, however it appears extremely out of place - such a detailed and lengthy explanation about ethnicity placed at the top of the article before any discussion about Demographics. Perhaps it should go in its own section a little further down the page. Please comment or edit. -- zzuuzz (talk) 04:17, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

See talk at Talk:French people. It has been quite a trouble defining who could be considered "French", some people from various origins and POV have quite different views on the matter. The French Republic has another one — and thus explains this disclaimer. I'll be pleased to explain further if you want... Lapaz 04:56, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. I actually fully appreciate all the problems surrounding French 'ethnicity'. This is really an issue of style, and concerns the fact that this article is about Demographics, and France, and not the definition of "French people" or ethnicity. It could be turned into a good section in the article, I think, but is quite out of context as the introduction to this article. This article is about the demographics of France, and should begin with an introduction to that subject. -- zzuuzz (talk) 14:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
You could be right. Although I see the disclaimer as a necessary warning: since this article relies on statistics, I believe it appropriate to include this warning that no official statistics in France gather ethnical or religious information. This choice has been made about a year ago, in particular because some Wikipedians insisted on using the CIA worldbook as source for statistical information on the population of France (on both this article and French people) rather than official French statistic. You surely are aware that demographics is a sensitive issue — it's not a surprise that the sub-section about immigration carries a lot more weight than, say, the babyboom and the general aging of the population. This said, Wikipedia:Be bold and propose a change for the better! Lapaz

[edit] Racial demographics

I would like to see a breakdown of the French population by race. Could someone please add this information to the article?

[edit] Rename from demographics to demography

Please see Talk:Demography#Demographics_vs_demography_confusion and comment.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  19:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1 cuban

is this supposed to be 1000? or no cubans at all? im really bored and im a dumbass which is why im writing this —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.100.240.136 (talk) 17:19, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Population not of foreign ancestry not much higher than pop after WWII ? Heh ?

I'm removing the following:

Note that this means the population that is not of foreign ancestry is only about 46 million, which is not much higher than France's population at the end of World War II (1945).

Which is not informative in the least. 1) "not much higher" is entirely vague and subjective. 2) a number of French people at the end of World War II were of "foreign ancestry" just as well, so it's apples compared to apples plus oranges. 3) the statement is connotative, Wikipedia however, is not a newspaper column. 82.231.41.7 (talk) 18:48, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Likewise I'm removing the statement that the number of arabs and africans is "estimated to be around 10 million [1]..". The source itself contradicts that statement (it claims 8 millions of "visible minorities", asians, maghreb, africa, dom-tom, not 10 million "arabs and africans"), and is a "think-tank" making dubious "estimates" (claiming 5-6 million people from Maghreb out of thin air). Let's stick to proper demographic sources 82.231.41.7 (talk) 19:24, 15 December 2007 (UTC)