Talk:Delicatessen

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[edit] Restaurant vs. Market

Perhaps a "deli restaurant" should be distinguished from a deli market in the article. right now, despite being mentioned, most of the famous delis, like the Second Avenue Deli, etc. don't fit into the current definition as a cross between a fast-food joint and a market.

[edit] Etymology

Delikatessen does not mean "delicate food". This could be an erroneous interpretation from "delikat"(adj.) + "Essen" (n., something to eat) which is correctly "delikates Essen". Yet "Delikatessen" simply is the plural of "Delikatesse" (delicacy).

Given the existence of a proper English version of the word it was never quite plain to me why the German word is used for some type of food stores (?) in the US. (Presumably because it used to be written on the front of such stores run by German descendants at some time in the past - spelled with latinic "c" which makes the word appear even more 'delicate' to German speakers -, but that's no reason not to turn to "delicacies", which is the very same word with the English plural)

As a native German speaker I would simply expect a high class grocery store when entering a "Delicatessen" shop.

I don't know where it would fit in, but I've encountered a related use of the word "Delicatess". In the early 20th C. (I don't have the date) a sausage company in NY City advertized in magazines : "A Delicatess Dinner, with Gomprecht's Famous Sausages". As I recall they offered a mail-order package that would contain sausages, condiments, and some other fairly non-perishable foodstuffs like crackers to make a dinner for two. Saxophobia 03:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Size

Re.:

"The largest delicatessen should not begin to approach the floor space of the smallest market."

Can other readers confirm this? I would guess that this may be true of delicatessens in Manhattan, where space is at a great premium, but delis in more spacious areas can be large. Should we delete, or modify, this sentence? Opus33 20:25, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I put that in because my experience with delicatessens fits this, which has been primarily in Manhattan. Otherwise, I've found that delis are often a section of a supermarket, or other larger retail center. If this is a false perception, then by all means, let us change the article. --Cogibyte 02:06, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Cogibyte. I put in a change to reflect variability across areas. In my city some of the delis are pretty big--proud holdovers from the 50's--probably not quite the real thing but an institution in their own right. Cheers, Opus33 03:19, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Recent changes

  • Someone added a paean to his favorite deli, in a location where it didn't fit very well. I've started a new section to accommodate these paeans; please go ahead and put in your favorites. I recommend inclusion only of delis that are famous local institutions; note that Katz's and Canter's already had their own Wikipedia articles.
  • I've moved the Canada section to come after Germany, where it will make more sense.
  • I lightly trimmed back the discussion of German grammar, which was more than was needed.
Opus33 15:52, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

It says that a deli never has a griddle, but if they're making egggggggggggg sandwiches for breakfast there must be a fking griddle someplace

[edit] Types of delicatessen

I came to this article looking for the regional differences between american delicatessens. For instance: what's the difference between a California-style deli and a New York style deli?

Wait, I know this one. Is it that California-style delis all say "Subway" or "Quiznos" on the front? :) Kafziel Talk 18:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

The claim of the German origin of the word is not supported by any evidence. Could we have at least one source? Delicatessen is a word in the Dutch language, and not in the German language so it doesn't seem very convincing. Piet | Talk 12:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

  • Evidence would not be bad, if someone ca provide for it, but the fact that "Delikatessen" in German is written with a "k" today does not mean it has always been like that. The Orthography was not standardized until 1901, and "c" was much more often used before that. According to a German newspaper article [[1]] the word "deli" came to America via the Yiddish language. Rufus79, 7 May 2007
Isn't the "eat" suffix -essen part unintentional? If you take the French word délicatesse and make a German plural form out of it, it would become délicatessen, non? - Tournesol 12:07, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "List of famous delicatessens"

This list is a mess. There's no "quality control" on it and no referencing. I'm almost inclined to say the whole list should be zapped, since I can't see how "famous" can ever be NPOV. 86.149.2.16 02:37, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] True "delicatessen" vs. European "delikatessen"

The eytomology is only tangentially relevant. A "delicatessen" in the US and Canada is primarily an ethnic Jewish restaurant, usually (but not necessarily) kosher. The original restaurants and stores were founded by immigrants from German-speaking countries, and eventually evolved to include sit-down dining as well as acting as emporia for the foodstuffs of Central Europe, which ipso facto had become delicacies because of their relative rarity in North America. The secondary meaning which has evolved is the convenience store, which has become a huge custom in North America. However, these are almost never called "delicatessen", but rather "deli"s. Undoubtedly, there are some European-style "delicatessens" out there, especially where there continues to be a large population of Americans of German non-Jewish descent. To complicate matters, true delicatessens are also called "delis" and have been for a very long time.

It's a radical idea, but in the interest of accuracy and helpfulness for the searcher on Wiki, there should perhaps be an article on "delikatessen" to cover the European institution, which is certainly relevant, but only secondarily to the "delicatessen" in English, in English-speaking Wiki. Even more radical, but still a recognition of the what's going on would be a third article on "deli" to cover the meaning for convenience store. A dab page could sort it out. Certainly the German delicacy store culd be included as another definition of "delicatessen" AS IT IS PRACTICED IN NORTH AMERICA RATHER THAN EUROPE (or possibly the UK or Australia.) I'll be glad to hear from anyone with other opinions. NaySay 16:55, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, there are without question many, many stores selling Italian delicacies. These are institutions with their own magnificent provenance. Are they really "delicatessen"s? Are they called "delicatessen"? Furthermore, the foodstuff delicacy store has become a reasonably secular institution of its own, deriving from several cultural traditions. The typical example would be New York's legendary Zabar's. It's huge, certainly traditionally Jewish in origin, has no dining to speak of, and encompasses large amounts of various other European foodstuffs, and (to a lesser degree) other international foodstuffs. The pattern was copied by another well-known New York emporium, Dean & DeLuca, which probably had the Italian model as its basis. (And there are a number of others, such as Barzini's.) Other major cities will have similar stores. But are these delicatessens? No, they aren't. Not by a long chalk. Not, in any case, in North America. NaySay 14:53, 11 August 2007 (UTC)