Talk:Decimation (Roman army)

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[edit] Missing Citation

"In addition, troop morale often increased dramatically after a decimation"

Where is the citation for this claim?

This seems to be a counterintuitive statement, it would be hard to imagine one's morale improving after having executed one's own comrade.

I guess there'd be a sense of relief and strengthened resolve in the soldiers not chosen. But yeah, we need a source for that one. Rufous 23:45, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Noise Shaping

What the heck does "decimation" have to do with "noise shaping" (under "See also")?? I've been to the Noise Shaping page and there's absolutely nothing to do with decimation on it. I recommend removal of that link unless there's some extenuating circumstance that I'm not seeing here. The Chief 03:34, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Link removed. -- DocSigma 22:14, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Leadership

It might be worth adding that when a legion was decimated, the leadership of the legion was usually executed, independen of the 1 in 10 deatsh of the rank and file. I am new and still learning the system, and so am not yet comfortable adding the edit myself...

[edit] Use by the French

I've heard, that decimation was used by the French forces in 1917 as a reaction to mutiny. Can anyone confirm? /da:Bruger:Poul G

I heard the same thing, cited by Wesley Clark in an interview. Some googling gives this. This is highly relevant for the article. Haakon 14:48, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


I remember reading somewhere that as late as 1914 or 1915, some senegalese soldiers refused to advance, so the French army ordered that the unit be decimated. Djandersonza 14:07, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article Title

When this is included- the article name should be change from roman army also because there is a "current usage" sectionVeggieburgerfish 12:07, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] World of Warcraft Team

I honestly do believe this does not fit in here. Wikipedia is a place for much, but not for everything in my opinion. Am I the only one thinking this or shouldn't this be removed? /204.162.xx.xx 00:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Current Usage

Unless someone has survey data, I think "some" is a better descriptor than "few" for the number of people who use the historical meaning. Erall 20:00, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The word no longer has any value, as it is only ever misused; correct useage is just confusing.
I’ve seen the word used recently :-
.a) as a malapropism for ‘devastate’: The German U-boat force in WWII was described as being decimated; the loss was actually 60-70%.
.b) correctly, but implying a worse situation: Staff numbers were described as having been decimated; actually the reduction in numbers was about 10% over the past so many years.
.c) as above, in a Roman context: After the fall of Carthage in the 3rd Punic War the city was said to be decimated; actually it was far worse than that.
On the other hand, in two instances where it did apply, the word wasn’t used at all.
.d) A headline about a murderer, sentenced to life (ie 20years) being released after 2 years.
.e) An item about a woman given 22 days in prison being let out after 2 or 3 days.
I've given up saying it; I just get funny looks. Xyl 54 07:42, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Extreme?

We have seriously missed the point on this, and no mistake.
The punishment for mutiny, or cowardice in the face of the enemy, is usually death: If the punishment for a whole unit doing this is to kill one man and let another nine off with a warning, Then that isn’t extreme, that’s an exercise in leniency, borne no doubt of practicality.
For example:-
When the crew of the Bounty mutinied, all of the mutineers were under sentence of death; there was no suggestion of a 10% punishment.The Admiralty mounted a huge effort to re-capture them; though only 6 of the mutineers were returned for trial, 3 of those were hanged (50%)
In the Hermione mutiny, of the 33 mutineers re-captured, 24 were hanged (60-70%)
Before the battle of Bunker Hill, 5 men broke from the British lines and ran towards the Americans. All of them were caught; General Howe (who had a reputation as a humanitarian) ordered 2 to be taken at random and hanged, while /and the other 3 returned to their unit. (40%)
The contrary view is from the mutinies at Spithead and the Nore (which was more of a strike, really); the Admiralty (recognizing its own faults in the matter), ‘only’ hanged the ringleaders.
Thats where our view that decimation is severe probably stems from. Xyl 54 07:36, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Speculation

And this bit:-
"However, because a decimation significantly reduced the troop strength of an army, and because it damaged unit cohesion by requiring soldiers to kill their comrades in a close-up and personal way, it is believed that the punishment was rarely used."
Is pure speculation: It either needs a citation to back it up, preferably from a Roman source, or it should be deleted.Xyl 54 07:47, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, I’ve removed this; it implies also that a Roman Army unit mutinied, or ran, one time, and was not decimated; is there any evidence that ever happened? Xyl 54 12:07, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations needed

"As a result, the threat of decimation inspired fear and resolve in the Roman Legions."
I’ve asked for a citation for this. The threat of a death sentence might inspire fear and resolve; a 90% chance of getting away with it probably less so.Xyl 54 11:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

"In his book Stalingrad, Antony Beevor recounts how the corps commander of a division that had retreated practiced decimation on them by walking down the line of soldiers at attention, and shooting every tenth soldier in the face until his pistol ran out of ammunition."
A reference would be good; book details, page number, Xyl 54 12:01, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] R+Y

"The current corporate managerial practice of rank and yank bears some similarities to this practice."
Can someone explain the connection? The implication is that sacking 10% of your workforce at random would improve productivity; “rank and yank” sounds more like culling. Xyl 54 12:06, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

That's correct. In "rank and yank", the key is to rank before yanking. There is no randomness or lottery... key aspects of decimation. I'm removing the reference. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 20:31, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First use of dëcīmo -āvi, ātum

The dictionary says that the word itself is post-Augustan, while the practice was in use by at least 283 A.U.C. as Livy wrote. Did Caesar use this word, or Livy for that matter? Legis Nuntius (talk) 22:46, 24 April 2008 (UTC)