Talk:Debits and credits

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[edit] Language Links

The Link to the German "version" is wrong as it links to a book of the same name.195.80.200.200 16:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

The two discussions on the merge have been moved to: Talk:Debits and Credits/Debit and Talk:Debits and Credits/Credit (accounting).

While some people voted no, a majority voted to merge, so I did. Ariel. 08:53, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page move

I disagree with moving the page from 'Debits and Credits' to 'Debit and credit', because 'Debits and Credits' is a title. Your example 'enclave and exclave' are simply two english words, but 'Debits and Credits' is the name of the double entry system. That's also why I made Credits uppercase.

If you google a bit you will find more hits for 'Debit and credit', but if you look very few of them are talking about the double entry system, however with 'Debits and Credits' nearly all the hits are talking about the system.

I will not move the page back, because I'd like to hear from people with more experience in the field - for example in a textbook, what is the name of the chapter? Ariel. 19:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Why group Debit & Credit together unless you are writing for a bookkeeping or Accounting Journal. Credit has many meanings, Credits also has many meanings. This is an not a financial encyclopedia. I feel that the accounting world is influencing this article. Debit and Credit are closely linked , but would you search for an article on Debits and Credits or Debit and Credit. I consider myself knowledgeable about this area and Debit and Credit does not appear right to me. BUT an article on bookkeeping/accounting debits and credits to me is acceptable but it must be made clear that it is an article about two bookkeeping terms which if written as two seperate articles would not be as clear to the reader. I would agree that "Debits and Credits" would be a more appropriate title. The title Debit and Credit would indicate to me that the writer is not familiar with the area of bookkeeping/accounting. An Article page for each 1.Debit (redirect debits) 2.Credit (redirect credits) and 3. Debits and Credits is my suggestion --NilssonDenver 23:38, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
The reason we didn't have separate article about debit and credit is we had nothing to say. Everything said about credit was also true (in reverse) about debit. And you are correct - this article is specifically about bookkeeping. So far no one has come up with anything to say about debit or credit that doesn't have to do with bookkeeping. Thanks for agreeing with me on the page name, I will wait a little longer and give User:NeonMerlin a chance to reply before moving it back. Ariel. 01:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I still support Debits and Credits NOT Debit & Credit NilssonDenver 22:09, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

To claim that "Debits and Credits" is a title (which I take to mean a proper name) is incompatible with the first paragraph of the article. If my moving this to the lower-case title was wrong, then the first paragraph is wrong and needs to get replaced. Michael Hardy 01:32, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clean-up

This page needs a bit of a clean up. Not being an experienced editor, I do not know how to do this. Examples of problems include internal links in External Links section and the page not being properly seperated into sections.--203.45.122.191 10:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Have you got a user ID. If so will you login using it before doing any changes. I will help with any cleanup you want to. Also check out [[1]] for help on editing. NilssonDenver 11:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] moved from my talk page

I've copied the following from my talk page. Michael Hardy 01:23, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Re: moving Debits and Credits to Debits and credits: not again! Can you please read the talk page before moving an article, you are the second person to move this, and now someone has to move it back. We have gone over this before, and Debits and Credits (uppercase) is the correct page name. We are probably going to have get an admin to do a history merge now. Ariel. 19:46, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

If "Debits and Credits" is a title (a proper noun) that should be capitalized, then the whole first paragraph of the article is wrong and needs to get replaced. If you can alter the first paragraph to make clear the nature of the topic in that way, I'll move it back. Michael Hardy 01:37, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

What needs to be altered in the first paragraph to make it clear? Debits and Credits are what is understood in the bookkeeping and accounting industry. They are technical terms. I am no English Grammar expert, but Debits and Credits are a accountancy technical area and to try and fit them in with proper english grammar may change the meaning of the terms. I dont know how this will all fit in with english grammar. At least if we all understand how we came to the final article name we could avoid constant article name changing. NilssonDenver 11:58, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm really surprised you ask this. Here's the first paragraph:
Debit and credit are formal bookkeeping and accounting terms that have opposite meanings and come from Latin. Debit comes from debere, which means "to owe". The Latin debitum means "debt". Credit comes from the Latin word credere, which means "to believe".
Nothing in this suggests that the whole phrase "Debits and Credits" is a proper noun—a name, like the name of an organization or a book title or the like. Rather, it suggests only that debit and credit are terms used in a technical way in a certain field, and that they naturally go together (hence one article rather than two). If either or those words, or both, were always capitalized then I'd say that they should be capitalized in the title. But merely saying "debits and credits are an accountancy technical area" is not reason to capitalize the words. Look at list of mathematics articles and click on any letter and you'll see hundreds of things that are technical terms in a particular field, and they're not capitalized. Wikipedia:Manual of Style is clear that you don't capitalize initials merely because they're in an article title. Michael Hardy 23:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Please note: I did NOT say the first paragraph is UNCLEAR. I said the first paragraph is inconsistent with the contention that the phrase "Debits and Credits" is a proper noun requiring capitalization. I think that is perfectly obvious. Michael Hardy 01:25, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for my ignorance but whatever the problem is with the title it is not obvious to me. Debits and Credits appears correct to me, please explain in plain english why Debits and credits is the correct article name. I am not disagreeing with what you say, I just don't understand :-) NilssonDenver 21:44, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Because Wikipedia:Manual of Style clearly says one should not capitalize an initial letter merely because it's in an article title. That convention is universally followed except by some newbies who haven't caught on yet. There has to be a specific reason to capitalize. Usually the reason is that it's a proper noun, like Albert Einstein or Church of England or Caspian Sea or War and Peace, etc. If there's a universal convention among the practitioners of a particular field that (perhaps unbeknownst to the rest of us) a certain word or phrase is required to be capitalized, that is a perfectly acceptable reason, but in that case, practitioners of that field should so inform the rest of us if we ask about it. Merely saying they are technical terms in some field doesn't do it, as I've mentioned earlier. If there's some universal rule in accounting that these terms are always capitalized, in this case it would appear prudent to mention that in the first paragraph. In this case, I notice that they are sometimes capitalized but more frequently not capitalized when they appear in the middle of sentences in this article. Michael Hardy 02:01, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

There are two things here: the concept as a whole of 'Debits and Credits', and the specifics of what a debit, or a credit is. Most of the first paragraph is made up of descriptions of the compenents of debits and credits, and thus is lowercase. An excellent example is the 'National Electrical Code'. It's the name of an entire concept, the same is true here. Ariel. 03:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

But names of laws and the like are often treated as proper nouns, as in "the Privacy Act", etc. Mere concepts, on the other hand, are not proper nouns. Michael Hardy 00:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Gramatically you are probably right and people are so use to doing things wrong because they look right. Your work is cut out for you fixing and arguing this point. We who are lax in our english grammar will continue to make glaring mistakes because of our ignorance. On a similar note but difeerent, a great book to read is "Eats, Shoots and Leaves". Picture a panda bear with a gun and get the double meaning when you remove the comma after shoots. NilssonDenver 00:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cashier and Customer Confusion

Hello,

I'm not entirely sure if I'm at the correct page for this but if I'm wrong feel free to correct me.

I've noticed recently that there is a difference between what Canadians and Americans believe Debit and Credit are. The majority of American tourists seem quite willing to argue with Canadian cashiers that their Visa cards are debit cards. Unfortunately, our debit and credit system does not register their bank account behind the Visa and just uses the credit system. So when I tell people that I am only able to accept Debit cards at certain times I get a line up of credit cards (Visa, Mastercard, Amex, Discovery). Litlest amazon 16:09, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Debit and Credit Confusion

Making the difference clear between Dr and Cr is of paramount importance for this article. I feel the various reasons people become confused by these terms is an issue for later discussion. Knowing why other people are also confused doesn't help the confusee. Can we leave that section out of the intro please? 195.66.30.23 (talk) 09:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inaccuracy

The article states:

The left side of the accounting equation (Assets) is designated as debits. The right side of the accounting equation is designated as credits.

However, this is misleading at best. Accounts from the left (asset) side of the Accounting Equation may be debited or credited, and the same is true for accounts from the right (liability + owner's equity) side. It is true, however, that asset accounts are said to be "debit-balanced" while liability and equity accounts are "credit-balanced." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.3.218.33 (talk) 05:03, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This article has gone off topic

This article contains major errors. The introduction is incorrect in its explanation of debits and credits. NilssonDenver (talk) 23:41, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I have now made changes to the introduction. Discuss! NilssonDenver (talk) 00:20, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction change of 27th Feb 2008

This was the original entry of one of the paragraphs

In an accounting system, transactions are recorded using a debit and a credit journal. In each transaction, one account issues a credit, the receipt of which is then recorded as a debit in another account. In an asset account, a debit entry signifies the receipt of new assets, and thus represents an increase in assets. A credit entry signifies a transfer of assets to another account, and thus decreases assets. In a liability account, a debit entry represents a sum to be applied toward the satisfaction of the liability, and therefore decreases the liability. A credit entry signifies a transfer of funds to another account, and therefore increases the liability.

"A credit entry signifies a transfer of assets to another account, and thus decreases assets." Depreciation can be shown as a credit entry against an asset account. A credit entry is not a transfer of assets to another account. The term "transfer of assets", in my humble opinion is not appropriate.

"A credit entry signifies a transfer of funds to another account, and therefore increases the liability." "Funds" also in my humble opinion may casue confusion.

What I am trying to get is an introduction that could appear on the article of the day page. Not to technical but not over simplified. NilssonDenver (talk) 11:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] still confused

I remember being confused with these concepts at university and now returning to them out of interest (some time since) I'm still confused. Half way down the page there is an explanation that a debit is an 'inflow' and credit is an 'outflow' from an account. I can buy this as it's something I can grasp. The explanation of why it's screwed up in banking statements is also understandable. (Although problermatic, you'd expect banks to explain this to customers the first time they open an account).

But what I still have problems with is the tables represented for the phone expense example. The first table states that when you pay for a phone expense, you're --cash-- is credited (goes out)... which is all good. However then it says that your --phone expenses-- are debited (comes in/goes up) which is counter intuitive.

The same on the phone companies end. --cash-- comes in (is debited) ...all good, makes sense. Then --revenue-- is credited (goes out/down), which doesn't make sense.

What assumptions am I making to screw up the picture. I think my argument is valid. Presumably the account names come with connotations in this context than they are expected to be used in accounting.

All in all, this page is still very confusing for the lay person. --Dmg46664 (talk) 14:59, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

You may want to look at Double-entry bookkeeping system#Debits and credits for a different explanation. The short answer is: whether debits or credits go "in" or "out" depends on the type of account, debit or credit. And for each debit on one type of account, you have to have a credit (of the same amount) on an account of the other type. Lars T. (talk) 17:49, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Going to add comments on this topic to the Double-entry bookkeeping system#Debits and credits page.--Dmg46664 (talk) 07:23, 3 May 2008 (UTC)