Talk:Death of Edgar Allan Poe

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Good article Death of Edgar Allan Poe has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
A summary of this article appears in Edgar Allan Poe.

Contents

[edit] Title

Best. Article Title. Evah. (Well, at least for today. :) ) Avt tor 16:53, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, thank you... it was a fairly obvious one. Midnightdreary 14:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alcoholism theory

The theory of Poe's alcoholism, both as cause of death and throughout his life, is being disputed and is beginning to be dismissed. Poe had a severe weakness to alcohol and became drunk even after one glass of wine. Poe has gone several months at a time without alcohol and seemed to have no attachment to it. According to this theory, the only reason Poe drank was because of unfortunate events in his life, which there seemed to be no end.

I removed the above addition because it desperately needs citations for it to be useful here. I'm certainly not saying it's not true, but "this theory" could be made by a second grader, for all I know. I suspect weasel words. But, if a source is found, it can be re-added. I'm also adding this to the talk page of the user who added it. Midnightdreary 19:57, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image moving

I moved the images around a bit for a couple reasons. First, his portrait is great, but it's also the first picture on the main Edgar Allan Poe and I think we need to differentiate. It's also his grave, which makes sense as a main image on a Death of Edgar Allan Poe page. Also, the image of the large memorial was next to the Poe Toaster section which may be a bad move - I'm not 100% sure, but I thought the Toaster visited his original grave. Lacking full info, I'm leaving that section image-less. Midnightdreary 17:57, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

By the way, if anyone is interested, we did resolve the question of which grave the Poe Toaster visits. Check out the Talk:Poe Toaster page. --Midnightdreary 13:46, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Featured article!

How do we nominate this for featured article? I think this is a pretty slick article! Then again, I'm pretty biased. :) Midnightdreary 01:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

It's too short for Featured Article - but it could be nominated for Good Article. They might think the 'Character assassination' section is a bit biased, though, as if the article is calling Griswold a meanie. -Malkinann 08:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, if the shoe fits... I'll get some sources that give a little more info on Griswold, maybe? There's a great quote I found once, along the lines of, "Griswold will one day be known only for those he has insulted." Midnightdreary 16:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
As a side note, by the way, feel free to take a look at the article for Rufus Wilmot Griswold. I did a lot of work on that page too. Midnightdreary 05:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Length/Organization

Well, I've done some significant edits today and I'm holding myself back from more. I think this article is long enough as it is, considering it's just one event. BUT, I was wondering if people thought the organization was clear or if work needed to be done? It seems strange, for example, that Cause of Death breaks apart the Chronology and Funeral sections - I almost want to add the funeral and reburial sections as as subsection under chronology. I think, and I could be wrong here, most people are coming to this page to read about the theories, not the step-by-step chronology. Thoughts?? -Midnightdreary 19:11, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Some of the citations need work, esp. the eapoe.org citations - see WP:CITE#Full citations for more information on what 's needed for a 'full' citation. Additionally, for GA, each direct quote will need a direct citation, I'm thinking of the section on the obituary here. "By then, however, Griswold's depiction of Poe was entrenched in the mind of the public, not only in America but around the world. Griswold's madman image of Poe is still existent in the modern perceptions of the man himself." - this assertion needs a citation or two. You may need to add a citation to the Poe Toaster section as well. -Malkinann 00:13, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
It's funny you mention those couple lines; I hate 'em, and was really close to ripping them out entirely earlier this week. If I can't find a good citation for it, I'll probably just yank 'em. I'll do what I can on those eapoe.org links (or someone else, really, can jump right in... seriously, go for it!). Anyway, thanks for the response. Sometimes I feel like I'm on a deserted island tossing out messages in a bottle on here. -Midnightdreary 00:43, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I've asked at the help desk Wikipedia:Help_desk#Citing_republished_material for assistance with the eapoe.org citations. If you can't find a citation for those two lines, then we really should yank them. No worries - I wouldn't consider myself a Poe buff, though.-Malkinann 04:20, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for calling in the cavalry. There's plenty more in here that needs citations, so I'll work on all of it as I find it (I'm looking at the burial section and the cause of death section). -Midnightdreary 13:38, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Preparing for review

I want to prepare this article for peer review or possible good article review. So, I'm asking for help. I just went a little crazy with "citation needed" tags and a couple "original research?" tags. The more citations we have, the stronger this article will be. Also, I'm going to check what I have to make sure the sources already cited really do refer to what's stated in the article. Please, please, HELP! I would especially like to see a wider variety of sources, beyond Silverman's book, for example. Thanks! --Midnightdreary 17:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I can't be of much assistance with sourcing information for you. As long as Silverman's book isn't the only reliable source used, it should be alright for GA. -Malkinann 23:18, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Automated review

I found this little toy, and it might be useful in determining WP:MoS issues that may crop up during the Good Article candidacy. The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Malkinann 23:18, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

This is great - thanks for putting it here! I'm horrible at intros and I know this one needs some work, so I'd love someone else to take care of that. Let me compile some more sources to get rid of all these tags; maybe by Wednesday we can reassess where we are at here. --Midnightdreary 00:09, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I'll give the lead a shot - essentially I gather it should be about the same as the summary in the main article. Do you have access to Meyers, Jeffrey: Edgar Allan Poe: His Life and Legacy. Cooper Square Press, 1992 ? It's cited in the main article as being the source of Poe's deathbed cry. -Malkinann 00:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
The trick will be writing an introduction that properly introduces the rest of the article. It should at least mention the re-burial, Griswold, and the Poe-Toaster, I think. --Midnightdreary 15:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe the long quote describing the exhumation to be from "Scarlett, Charles, Jr., "Tale of Ratiocination: The Death and Burial of Edgar Allan Poe," Maryland Historical Magazine, (1978), 360-374." but I cannot access it - does anyone have access to this article? -Malkinann 00:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I can't find it online, but I've found it referenced elsewhere a few times. I do, however, have the Meyers biography, which you asked about above. Sorry I didn't mention it before. :) By the way, are you good at reference formatting? I think it'd be easier to read here if we follow what was done at "The Raven" but I'm no good at all that. --Midnightdreary 12:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the only requirements for reference formatting are that they be consistent, and as complete as possible (author, year, publisher, ISBN/DOI, accessed date for Internet articles) - unfortunately I won't be able to do any more on Wikipedia until at least Tuesday.. You might like to think about the merits of [www.google.com Republished at the EAP society] vs (also available online) vs [www.google.com This is a Edgar Allan Poe article] in the meantime, and consider converting duplicate cites to a <ref name = "name of ref"> <ref name = "name of ref"/> format - this is explained more in WP:FOOT. -Malkinann 13:33, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Peer review

I've put this article up for Peer Review, so any interested editors feel free to keep an eye on any comments that come in (wikilink is at the top of this talk page). Hopefully we can get some good advice and send this article over to Good Article review soon! I should also say, this has been one of the greatest collaborative efforts I've been involved with here on Wikipedia (sure, it's come in ebbs and flows but overall it's been great), so thanks to everyone! --Midnightdreary 03:37, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neilson Poe

Unless Poe has two cousins named Neilson and Nielson, there is an inconsistency in the spelling of the name in the article. Source count in book and link searches favors Neilson, though some books do list as Nielson. Michael Devore 21:55, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Good catch on that one! My sources all seem to go with "Neilson" after a cursory check. I'm just going to spell it that way consistently. If we're wrong, at least we're stubborn about it! :) --Midnightdreary 01:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA review (on hold)

I can only describe this article as almost niquel

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
  • The lead needs to have references just like the rest of the article. (see: WP:LEAD#Citations in the lead section)
  • In "Chronology"s second paragraph you have a very long quote that gets off the main subject. It could be summerized very easily, leaving only the first part of the quote, then adding something like he descrived Poe's eyes as "lusterless and vacant". And then removing the whole clothing description.(see: WP:QUOTE)
  • Repetition, repetition. Poe, Poe, Moran, Moran. I changed a few, but please rephrase and change for "him" or "he", so as to have one Moran every two sentences:"Dr. Moran claims he attempted to cheer him up in one of the few times he was awake. Moran told him he would soon be enjoying..." and this "Moran cared for Poe at the for-profit Washington College Hospital, Moran denied any visitors to Poe". It helps the article's flow when you are not re-reading the same word over and over.
  • Something could be added to Poe's portrait caption, like the peer reviewer said. If you don't know the exact date "A portrait of E.A. Poe taken in the early 1840s" could work.
  • EXTRA:In the absence of contemporary documentation (all surviving accounts are either incomplete or published years after the event; even Poe's death certificate, if one was ever made out, has been lost)[31] it is likely that the cause of Poe's death will never be known. This could be rephrased so as to eliminate the ().
I'll put it on hold for seven days, but as soon as you adress these i'll take another look. Yamanbaiia 23:24, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the review! I've done some clean-up already - I totally agreed that those quotes of Poe's appearance were way too long. I've kept some of the clothing details because whether or not Poe was wearing his own clothes is an important question in this "legend." I cleaned up the repetition of Poe/Moran as much as I was comfortable with for now, but I'm concerned that excessive use of the pronoun "he" will make it unreadable or at least confusing. I'll work on adding some sources to the lead too, but even the link you provided said that citations are only needed for contentious or controversial info, so I'll try to keep it reasonably minimal. Anyway, thanks again! This article has been a great example of what Wiki-collaboration can accomplish! --Midnightdreary 03:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
The only thing missing were the references in the lead. And because all the things in that section are already referenced in the main body, I copy and pasted. I am now passing the article. Thank you for so much hard work, this has been a pleasure. :) Yamanbaiia 19:45, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks so much, and I'm glad you enjoyed it!! Great work on adding those couple citations - I see another line or two in the lead that I may add citations to, but you picked all the same spots I would have gone for. Thanks again (and again to all the others that have taken part in the creation of this article!). --Midnightdreary 22:07, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Poe Toaster

Before there is a violation of the 3 revert rule, let's try to reach a concensus about the Poe Toaster section: keep it or get rid of it?

I vote for keep, especially since it is in that format that this article was approved for Good Article status. This is a drastic change and MUST be discussed BEFORE making such a big cut. --Midnightdreary 13:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Keep: It's relevant to the article. Yamanbaiia 13:36, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Remove: No relevance at all to Poe's death. The Poe Toaster is a prankster that puts notes about such things as American football & the Iraq war on Poe's grave once a year. This all started long after Poe's death. That much attention to such a trivial factoid makes the article unbalanced.Tomixdf 15:42, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
We might as well focus this discussion over at Talk:Edgar Allan Poe. Feel free to join in there! :) --Midnightdreary 22:55, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Based on discussions at the main Poe article, it seems we'll be keeping the Poe Toaster over there. With that established, I'm okay with removing it from this article. I'll do so now. --Midnightdreary 02:45, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copy edit

This article, or a prior version of it, was copyedited by the League of Copyeditors on 17:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC). The League is always in need of editors with a good grasp of English to review articles. Visit the Project page if you are interested in helping.

Copyedited by Finetooth (talk) – 05:51, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Proofread by talkGiler – 17:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

--Midnightdreary (talk) 18:18, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alcoholism

I'm pretty well along in my copyediting of this interesting and well-written article. However, I've found more things to change in the "Cause of Death" section than in any other section thus far. Please double-check my changes; I don't always get things right. I have a question about one passage (already slightly altered by me) that I can't quite sort out. It says, "However, Poe's characterization as an alcoholic is disputed. Poe had a severe weakness to alcohol and became drunk even after one glass of wine; he sometimes went several months at a time without alcohol and seemed to have no attachment to it. According to this theory, the only reason Poe drank was because of unfortunate events in his life, of which there seemed to be no end." The final sentence here suggests that Poe drank endlessly because of unfortunate events in his life. This contradicts the idea that he had no drinking problem, and it doesn't seem to fit logically with the preceding sentences. A possible solution would be to omit mention of this "theory". If it's only the idea of one scholar and carries no particular weight, it would be good to leave it out. (I see that this question has already arisen on this page; my concern about the logic adds to the earlier concern about weak or limited support.) Finetooth (talk) 01:53, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I can see why it would be confusing. Frankly stated, Poe's alcoholism has probably been greatly exaggerated. The theory is that alcohol wasn't as significant a part of his life as has been imagined. It's quite heavily supported by many, many scholars and, conversely, opposed by many, many scholars. I'll see if I can clean up the section so it makes more sense. Thanks for all your great copy editing work, by the way - the article is much improved! --Midnightdreary (talk) 01:56, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Autobiography?

Thank you. I always hope to leave things better than I found them. I think your fixes have made the alcohol section much better. I have two more questions, this time about the "Character assassination". I'm thinking that the "Memoir" was presented as autobiography rather than biography. The word "forged" doesn't make sense unless Griswold was inventing things and attributing them to Poe. In other words, it appears that Griswold, at least in the "Memoir", was publishing fake autobiography rather than biography. A less important but related question is "Should 'Memoir' have a capital M?" Does the word refer to a chapter title, or is it meant as a general description? Finetooth (talk) 04:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

It's definitely not presented as autobiography. What was forged were letters that Griswold presented as being written by Poe... I thought that was fairly clear? I'll check on why there was a capital "M" on "Memoir" - there's definitely a standard method that Poe biographers and scholars present this. I think it's essentially the essay's title. Give me a day or so on that to find some kind of scholarly consensus. --Midnightdreary (talk) 05:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
The confusion in my mind arises partly from the word "memoir" itself. The Wikipedia article Memoir defines it as a subclass of autobiography. If Griswold's "'full biography" and the "memoir" are identical, Griswold, the old meanie, was pretending that Poe had said all these scabrous things about himself. My question is, "Was the 'full biography' presented to the public as autobiography, or are the full biography and the memoir two separate things?"
"Memoir" is just the title of the piece, not necessarily its genre. In mid-19th century America, the term didn't mean what it means today (it really just meant a creatively-written biographical sketch), so don't let the term throw you. --Midnightdreary (talk) 14:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A suggestion

I noticed that someone earlier on this page had objected to the repetition of "Poe" every time you needed to mention the guy. The alternative was to use "he," which is often OK. In one place, though, the "he" is somewhat ambiguous: "He did not know what happened to his trunk of belongings that, incidentally, had been left behind at the Swan Tavern in Richmond." I wasn't sure whether this "he", which appears in the next to last sentence of "Chronology", meant Moran or Poe. I would suggest using "Poe" or "Moran" here rather than "he". The trick that I'm thinking of, though, would be to change the first sentence of the lead to read: "The death of Edgar Allan Poe, American poet, short-story writer, editor, and literary critic, on October 7, 1849, is clouded in mystery, and the cause of death is disputed." You could shorten that a bit if it seems too wordy, but long or short, such a phrase would then allow you to refer to Poe as "the author" or "the writer" or "the noted poet" here and there where it seemed needed and appropriate, instead of being stuck with only "Poe" or "he". Finetooth (talk) 05:43, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

You know, that's not a bad idea at all... I'll get on that later today. --Midnightdreary (talk) 14:43, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Done

I'm done with my copyedit, and I'll sign off on the LoCE form. However, I'll keep tabs on how things are going, and I'll be glad to answer questions or help otherwise. Working on this article was a pleasure. Finetooth (talk) 05:47, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Nicely done! Thanks for the help! --Midnightdreary (talk) 18:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)