Talk:Deaconess

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Contents 1 NPOV 2 To-Do 3 Deaconess as a major order 4 Greek Orthodox Church 5 Catholic Deaconesses?

[edit] NPOV

In the "Art" section words like "conspiracy" violate NPOV. The ending phrase "to further glorify the role of Christian men" is way off the deep end, wow. PeterMottola 06:24, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe those are direct quotes or at least summaries of statements from the two books referenced. I will check to see if the WP statement is vastly different from the sources. Do you know of any source material that contradicts these assertions? --Robbie Giles 03:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

It seems that an objective description of the "Episcopa Theodora" mosaic would state that while some historians speculate that the use of the latinized feminine form "episcopa" indicates that Theodora was a female bishop, others point out that Theodora was the mother of Pope Paschal I, and the term was a common honorific befitting her status as mother of the pope. Of course, since this article is on deaconesses, and the section in question relates to Theodora's disputed status as bishop, perhaps it doesn't properly belong in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.65.176.14 (talk) 04:45, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] To-Do

• Add more info from western churches
• Name sections for more specific time periods
• Research time period from 14th century to modern times
• Religious art or photos of the artwork mentioned

--Robbie Giles 13:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deaconess as a major order

Council of Nicea canon XIX clearly states deaconesses are to be counted among the laity, i.e. not the clergy... AlephGamma (talk) 00:02, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

That canon refers to deaconesses coming from the heretical Paulianists, not deaconesses in general. If we are debating original research here, then the Council of Chalcedon canon XV clearly states that deaconesses are ordained. In any event, deaconesses ranked above subdeacons, who were also considered to be one of the major orders. -- Cat Whisperer (talk) 02:02, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out Chalcedon. Schaff still is of the opinion, and he cites Chalcedon that “the laying on of hands” of the deaconesses did not correspond to those ordained to the diaconate, presbyterate or episcopate - and that it was merely a solemn dedication. BTW, I'm not a researcher and I leave that PhD work to someone else. Where does the ranking of system come from? Last I read Scripture does not mention subdeacons. AlephGamma (talk) 03:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Here is an article on major orders in medieval times, after the office of deaconess died out in the West. There are also minor orders. Historical evidence suggests that bishop, priest, deacon, and deaconess were ordained in the East, while subdeacon and the others were not ordained either in East or West. Arguments against the ordination of deaconesses consist mainly of trying to cast doubt on or otherwise spin the historical evidence (such as Schaff's argument) and the theological understanding of the early bishops in East. Some of the debate points are in Ordination of women#Deaconesses and Female Deacons.-- Cat Whisperer (talk) 12:02, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

If someone assumes that the intent of a deaconesses' ordination and their functions were the same as a male deacons in the early Church (back in a time for which a lot of us in the Anglosphere lack the cultural, historical and linguistic references) - yes - then they would be a major order. Good point on Chalcedon. AlephGamma (talk) 02:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I still believe that it can be disputed that Nicea canon XIX can refer to deaconesses as being part of the laity whether they are Paulianists or not. Otherwise why does the canon not state something similar to - like the (male) clergy, let them be (re)ordained? AlephGamma (talk) 02:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The male Paulianist clergy were considered laity as well, otherwise why would they need to be (re)ordained? I don't know why (re)ordination wasn't an option for deaconesses. But this is a subject of debate within the Catholic Church. However, my understanding is that within the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the majority belief is that deaconesses were ordained. Probably not coincidentally, many of the Catholic arguments on the "deaconesses were not ordained" side depend on the assertion that the early Eastern bishops were just too theologically ignorant for their pro-ordination statements to be accepted. -- Cat Whisperer (talk) 04:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greek Orthodox Church

The Synod of the Greek Orthodox Church recently voted to start the ball rolling on deaconesses, but some bloggers are calling it a lay office which is not the same as the religious order of deacon. It is also being called a disciplinary decision. Since I don't read Greek, I don't know if the Synod has made that distinction. More information would be helpful. AlephGamma (talk) 04:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Check out Ordination of women#Eastern Orthodox. There is a Bishop Ware quote about it being an ordained office. -- Cat Whisperer (talk) 11:49, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I read the Bishop Ware quote. He is referring to his opinion on the historical state of the deaconesses as being ordained. I doubt he speaks for the Greek Orthodox Synod though and still would like to know what the Synod had to say - and if they made such a distinction as deaconesses being a lay function or an ordination AlephGamma (talk) 02:46, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know anything about the modern Greek Orthodox situation other than what was contained in the Ordination of women article. However, if the deaconess ordination ceremony was used unchanged, then Bishop Ware's comments (regarding lex orandi, lex credendi) would continue to apply. -- Cat Whisperer (talk) 04:25, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

There are too many assumptions being made. 1) Men and women were equals then - in the early Church and antiquity 2) That deaconesses then - in the early Church - did the same as modern deacons 3) deaconesses were ordained - the same way as men - and not blessed or appointed to a lay office 4) the Orthodox church agrees with Bishop Ware and 5) some conspiracy exists. Re-reading Nicea canon XIX in the view that deaconesses are laity - whether Paulianist or not - and were never ordained (as other Orthodox claim) - therefore IMO, I reason that the translation of Chalcedon canon XV does not have a plain reading or the clear meaning we think it it does. This brings to mind the plain reading of the "brothers" of Jesus. AlephGamma (talk) 16:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Evangelos Theodorou seems to be a leading scholarly authority among the Eastern Orthodox. From [1]:

Professor Theodorou's scholarly examination of the history of women deacons was first published in the year 1948. In his monumental study published in 1954, Theodorou clearly demonstrates that women were truly ordained as deacons in the Orthodox Church at least through the Middle Ages, and that the order never completely disappeared to this very day. Based upon an extensive study of ancient sources, Theodorou convincingly shows that women deacons were ordained at the Altar during the Liturgy in a manner similar to male deacons. In his study, Theodorou reproduces the ordination prayers for women deacons used in the Byzantine period. He also identifies and discusses the many responsibilities which women deacons had in the Church.

The article also indicates that the ancient ordination prayers of the Byzantine period was used in the modern ceremony. It would be interesting to see if there are any modern, scholarly opinions among the Eastern Orthodox that deaconesses are not ordained. -- Cat Whisperer (talk) 23:53, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

P.S. This page indicates that Prof. John Karmiris is on the non-ordained side of the issue. -- Cat Whisperer (talk) 00:30, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I can't tell for sure, but something I read makes me wonder if Prof. Karmiris thinks that deaconesses weren't ordained because he thinks deacons weren't ordained either. Weird, if true. Well, I guess the Catholic Church didn't figure out that episcopal ordination was a sacrament until Vatican II, so this must be a difficult theological question in general. -- Cat Whisperer (talk) 04:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

That's an old tactic - deny deacons were never ordained, which sounds like the myth of the calvinist Patriarch of New Rome. And I thought only the Pope was guilty of hubris. :) AlephGamma (talk) 02:22, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Catholic Deaconesses?

The heading of the article says the Catholic Church does not currently have deaconesses, but the Roman Catholic Church was in the list of denominations. That list does not have a particular title, but presumably it refers to denominations with deaconesses currently. That clearly conflicts with what was said above, so I removed the Roman Catholic Church from said list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.230.156.54 (talk) 18:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)