Talk:David Eppstein

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[edit] Subject of this article

is currently up at WP:RFA, and it looks like he will pass, in the early stages. Abeg92contribs 21:05, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Categories

Should I be listed under Category:Graph theorists? I think my recent invited talk at the international symposium on graph theory (Bled'07) gives me a pretty strong claim to that category, not to mention my publications, some number of which are purely on graph theory with little algorithmic content. But it's more of a value judgement than a documentable fact so I'm a little uncomfortable making that edit myself. More broadly, should others who have worked on graph algorithms but not on non-algorithmic graph theory be listed in that category, I wonder? —David Eppstein 20:34, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Agentareas! —David Eppstein 04:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Unthanks, Lar. Did you look at whether the edits Agentareas made were constructive or not before undoing them? —David Eppstein 01:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, XDanielx! —David Eppstein 04:28, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Another category that it would be appropriate for someone to add: Category:Naturalized citizens of the United States. —David Eppstein (talk) 16:25, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I doubt it should be here

The person himself/herself will agree.

No current research since 1999.

No celebrated research - working on a famous mathematical problems.

Not all awards are significant to list.

There are hundred of thousands of mathematicians superior to this in China, Europe, India, Russia to list a few. It is our ignorance.

May be listed down the road if significant work is accomplished.

Several areas are mentioned as field of research - are there research work done in those areas - list them or reduce the list.

We cannot add just like that the entries.

He/she is working member of Wikipedia - that should not be a criteria to include.

--Tangi-tamma (talk) 14:59, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I would just like to point out that (1) DBLP lists about 130 papers since 1999, so the nominator is a little confused, (2) I'm a computer scientist primarily, so of course my work isn't on celebrated mathematical conjectures, (3) the nominator has been involved with me in some disputes recently regarding some articles related to intersection graph, and (4) I have the strong impression that he was involved with me earlier in a dispute whether some students of S. S. Shrikhande were worthy of inclusion on the list of people with low Erdos numbers. So it's a little hard to assume good faith in this instance. But I'll leave it for someone else to unprod the article. —David Eppstein (talk) 15:05, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

This nomination for deletion was clearly unwarranted and I have removed the deletion prod tag. Tangi-tamma, if you still insist on deletion, you can take the nomination to WP:AFD. The subject passes the requirements of WP:PROF by over a mile: he has well over a hundred publications, many of them very highly cited. GoogleScholar [1] gives top citation hits of 455, 380, 195, 181, 147, 112, etc. These are extremely high citation rates for Mathematics. Contrary to your statement, there are lots of publications since 1999, see DBLP. As I said, you can try your luck at AfD, but in my view this nomination has absolutely no chance there. The fact that you were involved in a WP dispute with the subject of the nomination makes it even worse. Nsk92 (talk) 15:49, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I did not have any dispute; It is your personality that thinks so and you are guessing on me. I think I should go away from Wipedia. The # of papers should not be the criteria. I could list many with over 150 ppapers. Let us not argue on this. Thanks.

--Tangi-tamma (talk) 16:23, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The key point is not the number of publications per se, but the fact that substantial number of them are very highly cited. This is how Criterion 3 of WP:PROF is typically satisfied. As I said, you are welcome to take the deletion nomination to WP:AFD and have it go through a formal AFD discussion and vote there. Regarding whether or not you had a WP dispute with the subject of the article, this is easily verifiable. One simply has to look up Talk:Intersection graph, which is what I did. Nsk92 (talk) 17:00, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Regarding your other point. Yes, there are many academics who are more notable than this one and who do not yet WP entries; Wikipedia is still very much a project under development and there are many gaps in coverage of notable topics and people. But that is not a good reason to delete this entry. Rather, it is a good reason to create WP entries for these other people. Nsk92 (talk) 17:09, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Most of the points that Tangi-tamma is making should be raised at WP:AFD if the point of the arguing them is to push for a deletion. Re your edit summaries: It would be wonderful if there are hundreds of mathematicians and other scientists in India and the rest of the world more notable. I hope you're right--let's get articles about them, rather than trying to delete well-written articles about notable Western scientists. Best, -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 17:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Here is a notable mathematician on wikipedia only. This is what I was planning to write.

Abdulalim A. Shabazz . This is what I call Notable and many will agree with me. Please do not read me wrongly that I'm back proposing deletion of Eppstein. --Tangi-tamma (talk) 13:03, 19 April 2008 (UTC) First of all, let us not talk about Eppstein. If I continue, it is going to hurt me. He and I have worked together on Bivariegated graph. Why I took his name is because I knew him on wikipedia. I was trying to write a bio of a mathematician, but I was worried whether it will be accepted. In that context, I thought of studying Eppstein Bio including others. In a way, he is a kind of an established computer science professor including graph theory.

I'm not talking about any Indian mathematicians; Everybody is equal to me.

I ask you to look into Line graphs of hypergraphs and work on that to make it a better piece. Eppstein is helping too. Thanks.

--Tangi-tamma (talk) 17:56, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Shrikhande

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:David_Eppstein —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tangi-tamma (talk • contribs) 22:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] nsfgradfellows

I'm glad you were able to find sources for the information on the article, but the nsfgradfellows page is a little odd. "Born in England, he spent his academic career in the United States earning citizenship."?? What is that supposed to mean? I became a US citizen as a junior high school student (after having been in the U.S. since shortly before my fourth birthday) so it is my parents more than I who earned it, and my later academic career had nothing to do with it. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I am in the process of looking around to see what other reliable sources exist on you. :) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 23:31, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
You know, as I'm at it, it occurs to me that you could just add it to your website.... --Moonriddengirl (talk) 23:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

If you are holding dual citizenship (including GB), you may write it on your page.

--Tangi-tamma (talk) 13:07, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Abdulalim A. Shabazz

Here is a notable mathematician on wikipedia only. This is what I was planning to write.

Abdulalim A. Shabazz . This is what I call Notable and many will agree with me. Please do not read me wrongly that I'm back proposing deletion of Eppstein. --Tangi-tamma (talk) 13:03, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Picture? Why?

JonnieIrvine (talk) 04:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)What is the reason for wanting a picture of Eppstein on the article? He is not known for his beauty or looks (I have had him at UC Irvine, so I should know). Pointless except for vanity. He is such a minor figure, I just cannot understand why anyone would really care what he looks like, except presumably his family. JonnieIrvine.JonnieIrvine (talk) 04:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mistaken information in new edits

It is not true that I was ever a British citizen. My original citizenship was from New Zealand, where my parents were from, though I have never actually lived in NZ. My parents moved from NZ to England, where I was born, and then moved again to California, where I grew up and still live. My naive understanding of British citizenship law is that, at the time I was born, citizens of the commonwealth (including NZ) who were born on British soil had the right to request British citizenship, but I have never so requested.

If you want more detailed information than the new "doctoral_students = Some" line in the infobox, you can go to David A. Eppstein at the website of the Mathematics Genealogy Project. Though it's not clear to me whether one is supposed to list all students in that line, or only the notable ones; none of my doctoral students have their own Wikipedia articles.

I don't believe the "religion" line is relevant and would prefer to leave it blank than putting an explicit "not known" there. Of course it's known, to me.

As for JohnnieIrvine's insultingly-worded question about why someone would want a photo of me, you could try asking User:David Gerard, the editor who put the photo request there, but I have recently been working on adding some freely licensed photos to other biography articles (see this commons category) — I think it adds some interest and value to their articles to see what they look or looked like. And obviously they're not all actors and models but that's not the point. I haven't bothered to push for or create a freely-licensed photo of myself, but you can find a few different photos of me on the tabs on my home page; if anyone other than Irvine thinks one of them would be appropriate to include here as well, I can at least tell you who the photographers are so that you can ask for permission. I don't want to put a lot of effort into that myself but I don't want to stand in your way either. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:52, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A Couple of Clarificatory Points from JonnieIrvine

JonnieIrvine (talk) 05:02, 28 April 2008 (UTC)Professor Eppstein, given that you purport to be concerned with the truth and have ready access to the facts, namely, the full text of various nationality acts, (not hard to find, surely, for a computer scientist), and further, that the webpage David Eppstein, is not merely a personal sinecure page for "services rendered" to Wikepedia, you should understand the terms of The British Nationality Act 1948 and The British Nationality and New Zealand Citizenship Act 1948. You, David Eppstein (whether sought or not; ex lege) were (i) a British subject (BNA 1948 s.1)--the law in effect until The Citizenship Act (New Zealand) 1977; and (ii) a British citizen, again, whether sought or not; for under s.4 BNA 1948 "... every person born within the United Kingdom and Colonies after the commencement of this Act shall be a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by birth. You were born in England under these operative terms, hence a British citizen simpliciter. No action is taken. You do not register. Moreover, the mere fact that you have acquired US citizenship does not, of itself, automatically cancel previous citizenships unless they are expressly renounced in appropriate form. Would you say that your "naivety" (asserting truth claims in ignorance of the facts) led you to make such an error?

As to the harmless little jest about appearance, I too am plain and non-notable. I just do not think that Wikepedia is the place for photos of non-notable foot soldiers generally. It cheapens the content. You, alas, are merely one of a class that I do not think should be included. Leave the photos, Professor Eppstein, for the appreciation of family and friends. Have mercy on the rest of humankind. JonnieIrvine (talk) 05:02, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

You're not doing anything to make me think better of you. Why don't you just give it up and find someone else to attempt to drive away from Wikipedia? For that's what I interpret your constant attacks and jibes as (assuming you're the same person as longtime antagonist Irvine22, which the similarity of names and modus operandi makes likely): my article was created before I edited Wikipedia, and (after I learned of WP's COI policies) I've had very little to do with editing it, but you seem to view the simultaneous existence of an article and a user page here as a personal affront. Since the user page is the only one I over which have any significant control, the inference about what you want me to do is clear.
By the way, taking US citizenship does involve an express renouncement of other citizenships. Whether those other countries recognize such a renouncement is a different question. Given that I'm not attempting to change my citizenship, nor edit Wikipedia articles on international law, I think my ignorance of the subject is excusable, and you'll pardon me if I don't take your word as being sound legal advice. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:16, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

JonnieIrvine (talk) 19:21, 28 April 2008 (UTC)Professor Eppstein. A couple of further clarificatory points, if I may. Taking your second point first. Past ignorance is generally excusable unless it is wilful. Categorical assertions that are false--"It is not true that I was ever a British citizen"--do certainly require correction by those with knowledge to the contrary. Before I would make a categorical assertion of this kind for public display, I would endeavor to check my facts. Repeating such a claim would not be so excusable. No Professor Eppstein, I would not expect you to take my word for it. It is, I believe, a question of independent “verification”--a principle, I believe, generally shared by scientists. I have kindly provided you with the requisite sources so that you may grasp and not repeat the error made. These authoritative sources (primary documents) are publically accessible and require only modest English reading ability and comprehension, content that millions of immigrants all over the world have grasped and understood. No expertise in International Public Law is required. Really, Professor Eppstein, you do seem a bit prone to exaggeration, perhaps for dramatic effect. Having recently looked again at the “David Eppstein” web page on Wikipedia regarding your achievements to date, apparently the world is simply expected to take your Online CV, you own website, and your own (sometimes erroneous) interjectory notes dotted about the place as the independent declared third party source of knowledge about you and your noteworthiness. Verification? A case of the pot calling the kettle tainted perhaps?

As to the other matter, I am not Irvine22, although I do agree with and endorse a number of his or her substantive points. Reflecting a broad sense of affinity in one’s choice of name is surely the instantiation of good classificatory principle. I share his or her desire to see Wikipedia made a genuinely better encyclopedia by challenging dubious entries or entries of poor substantive worth, especially entries that seem to be tampered with by the subjects themselves or their surrogates and agents. Such a task is informed by a desire to serve the public good.JonnieIrvine (talk) 19:21, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I take your phrasing involving "tampering", and insinuations that I have "surrogates and agents" here to do my bidding, as another uncivil personal attack, after you were expressly warned to cease such attacks. If you want to challenge the article, do it properly, via an AfD: it doesn't serve the public good to post attacks on the subjects of the articles, whether on the articles themselves (as the other Irvine, whom you identify yourself as being in agreement with, has done) or in the talk page, regardless of your opinion of the notability of those subjects. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:52, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

JonnieIrvine (talk) 21:19, 28 April 2008 (UTC)Professor Eppstein. Thank you for your further clarificatory responses. If I may. "I share his or her desire to see Wikipedia made a genuinely better encyclopedia by challenging dubious entries or entries of poor substantive worth, especially entries that seem to be tampered with by the subjects themselves or their surrogates and agents. Such a task is informed by a desire to serve the public good". This is a statement of my general aim or philosophy and applies to Wikipedia generally. You were not singled out here for special mention. You were not cited as an example. I would have thought it a declaratory aim that all Wikipedians, new or old, in good conscience, could subscribe to. It is hardly a personal attack but a clear statement of purpose. This is a case of misrepresentation. Further, my response, by way of clarification, was implicitly asked for.

Let me continue, Professor Eppstein. It appears that want to have it both ways: to be both "victim" and "accuser". By responding to my comments, is this not a least a tacit endorsement of the appropriateness of the venue for further commentary? This is after all, the talk page immediately next to the heading David Eppstein "article". Perhaps I am myself not yet fully enlightened as to the ways of posting responses. Should you not have raised the point earlier with a "cease and desist from comment” statement? By responding and raising further points you were clearly inviting further commentary on the points of disagreement. By saying that Irvine22 and I are basically the same, you court further commentary in order to clarify as to similarities and dissimilarities.

Further, Professor Eppstein, with regard to "you were expressly warned" by whom? Does this refer to the very person Ashanta who erroneously edited the article "David Eppstein" that you personally decided to intervene, edit, amend and correct and who has been in communication with you with regard to your subsequent edit? In my editing of the article “David Eppstein”, I have been transparently scrupulous in my editing of the article with regard to changes of fact pro bono publico. I am sure you are aware of this having recently edited the article yourself.JonnieIrvine (talk) 21:19, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I think you mean "Ashanda", not "Ashanta". :-) May I ask what exactly has got you upset? I don't see that Professor Eppstein has done anything improper. Minor lapses in knowledge about citizenship law shouldn't be a cause for an argument, just a correction like you and I have both done. If you could explain the motivation behind your aggressive posts, perhaps the issue could be addressed. Thanks! Ashanda (talk) 21:34, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Given that JonnieIrvine's contribution history consists solely of edits related to this article, I find his "you are not singled out" claims to be disingenuous at best. But I don't see further interaction with him as likely to lead to anything constructive. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:45, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious - this page is for discussing the David Eppstein article, not for personal attacks on David Eppstein the person. The guidelines for talk pages are at WP:TALK.
User:JonnieIrvine, if you think something in the article is incorrect (and you have references to support it), then edit away and feel free to comment on those edits here. But your personal views about Eppsteins character and personality aren't relevant to the article and don't belong on this page. Euryalus (talk)

23:16, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


I'd like to confirm that I am not the same person as JonnieIrvine. Also, I dispute that the minor edit I made some months ago constitutes an attack either on the article or the subject. It represented my personal view of the adequacy of the publications listed on the page at that point in time. It was pointed out to me that such personal views are not appropriate encyclopedic content, and I accept that. It did, however, seem to have the effect of prompting others - perhaps the subject, perhaps his proxy - to edit the article to include further infromation about Eppstein's publications, which are evidently quite extensive. I actually disagree with Jonnie Irvine about the appropropriateness of a subject editing a biography article. I think it should be permissible and I just regret that Wikipedia's COI guidelines make it hard to do so openly. After all, who would have better information about David Eppstein than David Eppstein? And given that - for better or worse - Wikipedia articles are often amongst the first to come up on Google, subjects have IMO a legitimate interest in ensuring the information they contain is accurate. Once a subject has been determined to be notable, and an article passed for inclusion, as is clearly the case with this one, I think a subject should feel free to edit away! (I do still feel, however, that the link to Eppstein's personal website borders on advertising, but I'm sure it's a grey area.)

I find the argument about Eppstein's citizenship to be somewhat arcane - he is clearly just an American, although I suppose the information about his Kiwi heritage adds a certain hobbity color to the page.

Finally, I don't share JonnieIrvine's aversion to pictures on biography articles. I actually agree with username David Eppstein (who I assume is the subject of the article, but you can never be totally sure) that it is good to know what people look/looked like. As the subject is evidently also a photograher, I'd encourage him to go ahead and license a photo already and stick it on the page. He shouldn't be shy. He looks okay to me. Nothing to write home about, but not exactly ugly.Irvine22 (talk) 23:46, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Irvine22. Yes, I am the same person as the subject of this article. The issue with "just licensing a photo already" is that they're mostly not by me and therefore need the permission of someone else than me in order to license them. But I took and would be willing to licence the one here if you don't mind that it's a mirror image of what I look like (it was shot into a mirror, and I don't like the way it looks if I unreverse it). Or I could ask the photographer of the one here whether she'd be willing to licence it appropriately. Unfortunately the one that I think is most suitable for the article, this one, is unable to be freely licensed due to some arcane process of my institution's intellectual property ownership, and had to be deleted earlier (after being uploaded as a fair use publicity photo) because it could not be properly licensed.
As for whether I should edit the article directly, and whether others in a similar position should be allowed to do so more freely, I'm mostly happy letting it be someone else's problem. That way I don't have to worry about whether I'm making an edit to serve an encyclopedic purpose or to be self-promoting. These days I try to intervene only when I think there's something misleading that needs to be fixed. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:19, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

JonnieIrvine (talk) 23:51, 28 April 2008 (UTC)Professor Eppstein and Ashanda (I hope I am correct this time in spelling your name). Thank you for both coordinating your responses to my earlier posting. So, I take it that this page is indeed the correct venue for a fledgling Wikipedia supporter to make their views and responses known after all concerning the article "David Eppstein", in part, edited and corrected by "David Eppstein". I'm pleased, also, that we can agree that Professor Eppstein's status has been clarified and the "not true" statement he levied has been accordingly met. I have been merely responding to Professor Eppstein's continuing engagement. I made the original change viz. nationality on the "David Eppstein" page, and it was incorrectly edited by Ashanda by virtue of Professor Eppstein's incorrect posting on this page as a key source of information appealed to in order to revise the article by Ashanda the warning giver. Error in amendment compounding error in this posting. Professor Eppstein takes exception to his page being scrutinised. I see that someone else has removed the request for a photo. Not I. A positive response. Welcome scrutiny. I merely sought to raise the issue with some jovial light hearted university banter that I thought Professor Eppstein would appreciate and should certainly be used to at UCI. I even sought to include myself in a rejoinder to the "photo" comment to show that he was not "singled out", but was one of many, in my view, not worthy of a photo thus having "mercy on humankind". It seems my scrutiny has brought forth positive fruit. As to the issue of why I should spend my time revising and checking a figure of minor significance in Wikipedia, Ashanda, I do indeed wonder about that myself. This is a difficult question for me to address. Perhaps I have too much idle time on my hands! UCI, alas, does have more than its fair share of that sort of thing. And yet still, perhaps, the public deserves veracity even in minor matters. I do have a list of other pages to engage with. I'll take your advice and see how this admittedly minor article for scrutiny plays out versus other (more worthy) subjects ....JonnieIrvine (talk) 23:51, 28 April 2008 (UTC)