Talk:Daniel Prophecy Literary Parallels

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Contents

[edit] Information source

The data on this page was originally on another. There had been concerns raised previously. I am now moving them from the previous page to this one.

[edit] Sources

I stand by my former statements that the literary structure of Daniel by itself calls for parallel paraphrasing of chapters 2 and 7, however to satisfy Sinaticus here are some sources that put chapters 2 and 7 in parallel.

Between WWI and WWII, LeRoy Froom photocopied all books and papers he could find in all the libraries of Europe that dealt with the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. In 1948 he published a synthesis of his research. Listed below are some authors who have written on the parallel between chapter 2 and 7.

  1. 430 Augustine
  2. 735 Venerable Bede
  3. 7th C Andreas
  4. 7th C Sargis d'Abergia
  5. 8th-9th C Eliezer *
  6. 942 Saadia *
  7. 9th C Berengaud
  8. 10th C Japet Ibn Ali *
  9. 1105 Rashi*
  10. 1167 Abraham Ibn Ezra *
  11. 1178 Peter Comestor
  12. 1202 Joachim of Floris
  13. 1274 Thomas Aquinas
  14. 1379 John Whclif
  15. 1393 Walter Brute
  16. 1522 Martin Luther
  17. 1530 Johann Oecolampadius
  18. 1543 Philipp Melanchthon
  19. 1545 George Joye
  20. 1553 Hugh Latimer
  21. 1560 Virgil Solis
  22. 1579 Nikolaus Selinecker
  23. 1603 George Downham
  24. 1614 Thomas Brightman
  25. 1631 Joseph Mede
  26. 1655 John Tillinghast
  27. 1664 Henry More
  28. 1670 William Sherwin
  29. 1684 Thomas Beverley
  30. 1701 Johannes Cocceius
  31. 1712 Heinrich Horch
  32. 1727 Sir Issac Newton
  33. 1745 John Willison
  34. 1754 Thomas Newton
  35. 1787 Hans Wood
  36. 1787 Pierre Jurieu
  37. 1789 Christian G. Thube
  38. 1793 James Bicheno
  39. 1795 Uzal Ogden
  40. 1798 Edward King
  41. 1798 Jeremy belknap
  42. 1799 Jno. H. Livingstone
  43. 1800 Jean G. de la Flechere
  44. 1800 Benj. Farnham
  45. 1804 Eliphaiet Nott
  46. 1808 Asa McFarland
  47. 1808 John King
  48. 1808 John Rameyn
  49. 1808 Elias Smith
  50. 1808 William Miller
  51. 1810 Jedediah Morse
  52. 1811 Ethan Smith
  53. 1811 Wm. C. Davis
  54. 1812 Timothy Dwight
  55. 1813 Edw. D. Griffin
  56. 1814 Aaron Kinne
  57. 1815 Elias Boudinot
  58. 1815 Amzi Armstrong
  59. 1824 Robt. Reid
  60. 1826 T. R. Robertson
  61. 1828 Joshua L. Wilson
  62. 1830 Sam'l M. McCorkle
  63. 1830 Alex. Campbell
  64. 1834 Robt. Scott
  65. 1835 Adam H. Burwell
  66. 1841 A.L. Crandall
  67. 1842 Rich. C. Shimeall
  68. 1843 Edward Winthrop
  69. 1843 Elias A. Burdick

Jewish Expositors *

Froom, LeRoy Edwin, 1948, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, 4 Volumes, Review and Herald Publishing Association. Pp. 2000+/-

Here are some quotes from some books in my library:

"The same succession of empires, as was portrayed in Nebuchadnezzar’s image, now appears as fierce beasts with many added details." Anderson, R.A., 1975, Unfolding Daniel’s Prophecies, Pacific Press, p. 88-89

"A closer look reveals that the four beasts, which march onto the scene of history and represent universal kingdoms, are nothing but a broader and more precise restating of the data in chapter 2." Doukhan, Jacques, 1987, Daniel: The Vision of the End, Andrews University Press, p. 17

"Amid the storms of human strife, four major powers would dominate the history of God’s people. Daniel’s thoughts may have gone back through the years to the occasion when, as a young man, he stood before Nebuchadnezzar and told the astonished king of the four kingdoms – gold, silver, brass and iron that would follow one another before the God of heaven set up His kingdom." Down, Kendall K., 1991, Daniel Hostage in Babylon, The Stanborough Press Limited, p. 54

"A few years after the king’s vision, Daniel had a vision that covers the same kingdoms and same time periods as the dream of Nebuchadnezzar. In fact, the observant student will soon notice the prophetic process of repetition and enlargement within the books of Daniel and Revelation." Wilson, Larry, 1992, The Revelation, of Jesus, TEACH Services, p. 61

"In Daniel 7, which is a transitional chapter, we turn from the historical accounts of the prophet’s life to his visions. Its use of the Aramaic language and its parallelism with chapter 2 connect it with the preceding chapters while its subject matter binds it to what follows." Pfandl, Gerhard 2004, Daniel, the Seer of Babylon, Review and Herald Publishing Association. p. 59. Allenroyboy 18:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I think you will find that Wikipedia policy quite clearly requires a cited, reliable source to show exactly who it was that first drew each and every one of these specific alleged 'parallels' that you are drawing, since the text does not explicitly state that it is meant to be parallel, and others might even disagree that it is intended to be parallel. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 12:43, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

A quote showing acceptance of parallels between chapters 2 and 7 by early church theologian:

"The 'golden head of the image' is identical with the 'lioness,' by which the Babylonians were represented. 'The golden shoulders and the arms of silver' are the same with the 'bear,' by which the Persians and Medes are meant. 'The belly and thighs of brass' are the 'leopard,' by which the Greeks who ruled from Alexander onwards are intended. The 'legs of iron' are the 'dreadful and terrible beast,' by which the Romans who hold the empire now are meant. The 'toes of clay and iron' are the 'ten horns' which are to be. The 'one other little horn springing up in their midst' is the 'antichrist.' The stone that 'smites the image and breaks it in pieces,' and that filled the whole earth, is Christ, who comes from heaven and brings judgment on the world."

Hyppolytus, 170-236 AD, Commentary on Daniel [translated], "The Ante-Nicene Fathers", Volume 5, p. 178, 179

Allenroyboy 21:21, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problems

I don't think it is self-evident from the text that Chapter 7 is supposed to be parallel to Chapter 2; I think that is an assumption. At least we are getting somewhere on the source of this assumption; if you can find the exact citation to the chapter-and-verse number in St. Augustine's writing where this assumption is first mentioned, you can attribute it in the article in accordance with WP:CITE.

The reason I don't think it is self-evident is that there is another interpretation that I feel is more faithful to the actual words of the chapters in question. The 4 Empires in chapter 2 are a chronological sequence of superpowers beginning with Babylon at the Head in Daniel's own time, followed by those farther down the statue who are later in time, until you get to the toes of the feet in the last days.

However, the four beasts in Chapter 7 do not seem to be a chronological sequence. They seem to be four major powers that will be vying for supremacy all at the same time, i.e. in the last days, when one of them, the fourth, predominates over the other three (the bear, the lion and the tiger) and out of this fourth comes the evil ruler of the world during the tribulation, of whom much is prophesied. Not everyone agrees with St. Augustine and the others that these four beasts are necessarily the same as the four empires of Chapter 2, which are chronologically arranged in sequence, not all at the same time, from Daniel's time until the end of this world. Other interpreters have come up with various interpretations of the bear, the lion, the tiger, and the fourth beast who are all competing at the same time, that have nothing to do with the chronological sequence of Babylon and her successors - despite all the supposed parallels assumed by Augustine and others on your list. So in fairness to NPOV, we should attribute the opinion of Augustine et al., but not represent it as if it were self-evident truth, and we should also give some other interpreter's identifications of the four beasts of Chapter 7, for balance. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 21:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

We are talking about two different things here; A) parallels of words, phrases and ideas between chapters 2 & 7, and B) interpretation of the symbols. According to Froom, for more than 14 centuries, the parallel between chapters 2 and 7 was recognized such that all of these authors interpreted the four metals and four beasts as Babylon, Media/Persia, Greece and Rome. But, what is important here is not their interpretations, but the fact that all these people based their interpretations upon the obvious parallels between chapter 2 and 7. I have been studiously avoiding outside interpretation and just pointing out literary parallels -- letting the Bible explain itself. That is the only point I have been trying to make. I believe you are jumping ahead of yourself with outside interpretations and ignoring the textual structure and parallels.
I pointed out in illustration and text that there are literary parallels of words, phrases and ideas between chapters 2 and 7, without making any kind of commitment for or against any interpretation. It may be that some interpretations may be in conflict with the literary structure of the texts. That is not my concern. You can always find mutually contradictory interpretations. Who cares? Those are just men's ideas. What does the Bible actually say?
The parallel words, phrases and ideas between chapter 2 and 7 become even more enhanced by comparison with chapter 8 (which I have not yet put posted).
The four beasts arise out of the sea in consecutive order, not all at once. The use of the "vaw" connective (vs. 5 And there...2nd beast, vs. 6 After that...3rd beast, vs. 7 After that...4th beast) always indicates sequence and order, one after the other, just as in chapter 2 where the same 'vaw' connective is used (vs. 2:39 After you...2nd metal, Next...3rd metal, vs. 40 Finally...4th metal). This is literary structure, not interpretation. This is one more literary parallel between chapters 2 and 7.
Allenroyboy 07:43, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] notice

Did you intend to just mark the one section--Daniel 8 parallel with Chapters 2 & 7--or the entire article? Allenroyboy 18:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

The entire article lacks adequate and balanced citation (I noted a heavy reliance on Seventh-day Adventist sources); however I placed the tags in this section because it is particularly unbalanced in its POV. Many Christian scholars would agree that Daniel 2 and 7 are parallel, but Daniel 8 is a different matter. Virtually all non-SDA scholars believe Daniel 8 (as well as Daniel 10-11) is a prophecy about the Hellenist era and the events surrounding Antiochus Epiphanes and the Maccabean revolt. Tonicthebrown 05:57, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
The point of both this section and the one above is that Christian theologians for 2000 years have made the parallel between 2,7 and 8. Hyppolytus is just one example. It may well be that some scholars in just the last couple hundred yeas interpret 8 and 11 differently. But that does not negate 2000 years of Christain prophetic interpretation. Allenroyboy 15:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
That doesn't matter -- in order to be NPOV, all perspectives must be equally considered, and modern scholarship carries as much weight as tradition. If you read commentaries and other works by theologians, you will find that even conservative and evangelical scholars take the findings of modern scholarship seriously. This applies to Daniel as much as to any other area of biblical studies. Ancient theologians, though they do have value, have been shown to be incorrect about many things. For example, few people in modern times would follow Augustine's interpretation of Jesus' parables, and the prophetic theories of Joachim of Fiore are hardly taken seriously by anyone. Tonicthebrown 11:13, 27 May 2007 (UTC)