Talk:Daisetz Teitaro Suzuki

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It has been proposed below that Daisetz Teitaro Suzuki be renamed and moved to D. T. Suzuki.

The proposed move should have been noted at Wikipedia:Requested moves.
Discussion to support or oppose the move should be on this talk page, usually under the heading "Requested move". If, after a few days, a clear consensus for the page move is reached, please move the article and remove this notice, or request further assistance.

Maintenance use only: Add to WP:RM {{subst:RMlink|Daisetz Teitaro Suzuki|D. T. Suzuki|REASON|section={{{section}}}}}

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What are the kanji for his name, and how is "Daisetz" properly spelled? (Japanese doesn't have a "tz" sound, and even if it did, it would be followed by a vowel. I'm guessing this spelling is either idiosyncratic or from a different transliteration system.) - Furrykef 03:50, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Did a couple minutes research, and it looks like "Daisetz" is an unusual transcription corresponding to "Daisetsu". Look like this is normally written in Japanese as Suzuki Daisetsu (except in characters, I mean), so I couldn't find kanji for Teitaro. - Nat Krause 13:07, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Kanji for Suzuki's name

Suzuki's Japanese name is 鈴木大拙貞太郎. See the article in Japanese Wikipedia at http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%88%B4%E6%9C%A8%E5%A4%A7%E6%8B%99

[edit] Suggestions for modification of this page

I am new to Wikipedia and don't really understand the editing protocols, but I would venture to suggest that this article is uncritical of a vision of Suzuki and his life which blends biography with hagiography. I think more balance could be added by including some of the information included on Suzuki in Brian Victoria's _Zen at War_, and also Robert Sharf's articles on the Sanbokyodan and "The Zen of Japanese Nationalism". - Fudaizhi, Sep. 5, 2006

Good suggestion.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 20:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I also find the article is hagiography. Criticism of D.T. Suzuki dates back at least as early as Hu Shi, e.g. in the April 1953 edition of Philosophy East and West. (But I forget who it was who wrote that subsequently translated Dunhuang texts show that the Hu/Suzuki debate is now mooted, with both views now proven wrong?) Winston L. King's criticism of D.T.S. in 1993's Zen & The Way of the Sword seems to be similar to Brian Victoria's but I'd say King is more measured and philosophical. Similarly, John McRae may be a bit less intense along the same lines as Robert Sharf (but McRae also refers & maybe defers to Sharf). --Munge 08:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copy-edit problem: a half quote - what is meant here?

There are some lines near the end of the article that gtive a sense of the criticism levelled at Suzuki by some scholars. I believe these should be explicitly qualified as the opinions of certain authorities.

However, more puzzling — there is the following, with a quote mark at the end but not at the beginning: That being said, it should be born in mind that Suzuki was not a Zen teacher in any sense of the term and that his work is riddled with inaccuracies, especially concerning the reality of Zen training. The West does indeed owe him an incalculable debt but he cannot be recommended as a source of clear and accurate information on Zen practice or history." [my italics]

Who is it who writes "That being said"? Is it Nishitani Keiji, who is quoted just previously in the paragraph? If so, this is not clear due to the punctuation (a quote is ended just previously).

Or is this the opinion of a Wiki writer? If this is the case, this also is not clear.

In either case, while the note of criticism (intended to round out the perspective on Suzuki) may be justified, the paragraph simply doesn't read properly at present. Thanks for having a look and/or for correcting the punctuation. Joel Russ 23:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Since no one came forward to deal with this problem described above, today I've made an attempt to resolve it through copy editing. You can see what the change is by comparing the last two edits (to date). The text now does not indicate a quote of some authority, but states the position of some authroities. If this is off the mark, please improve the situation. Joel Russ 22:42, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Raise citation standards?

The concerns about "hagiography" on this page are legitimate, but we don't really accomplish anything if we simply add yet MORE unreferenced "evidence" that trashes Suzuki. There's something really, really riotously funny about "accuracy" concerns when you are talking about zen, so I have to question the understanding of whomever chose to judge D.T. Suzuki for his "inaccuracies." There is no "accurate" description of zen. If you think you've got the "accurate" definition, "you do not have the proper understanding," as the other Suzuki, (Sunryo) (Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind) says. Instead, what you have is just a funny attachment to the idea of "accuracy."

D.T. Suzuki's important for how he helped grease the skids for the transmission of zen to 20th century America. He deserves the proper references and citations. Phoebe13 18:09, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Accuracy of Kapleau quote in "Comments" section?

Here is the material I moved from the article page until we can check the quote. This seems to be more of a "talk" kind of statement. It's an extremely valuable point; can we have the quote on this with the citation? Can this post-person please re-write it as a direct quote from the source, and cite it:

(Actually Kapleau compares Yasutani Roshi, not D. T. Suzuki, with the redoubtable Bodhidharma (see The Three Pillars of Zen, p. 29). Kapleau was in fact a little critical of Suzuki whom he perceived as having intellectualized Zen too much)

I don't mean to offend anyone by moving it; I'm trying to get it noticed because it sounds important. Phoebe13 (talk) 18:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about Kapleau, but I do know Sokei-an did have real problems with Suzuki's approach. I'll insert a quote from a biography on Sokei-an's wife, Ruth Fuller Sasaki, when time permits. Basically, the gist was the two men were not friends. Suzuki looked down on Sokei-an for not being of the "temple Zen" tradition, and Sokei-an spoke often to his wife disparigingly about his writings and understanding of Zen. (Mind meal (talk) 03:07, 5 March 2008 (UTC))
That's really helpful, Mind-meal...I checked p. 29 of Kapleau's Pillars, and there is no direct comparison there either of D.T. Suzuki to Bodhidarma or of Yasutani Roshi to Bodhidarma. So unless the deleted quote above is based on some alternate edition of Pillars, it will create confusion about what Kapleau actually wrote in the book. Kapleau says Alan Watts acknowledges DTS's omissions on p. 89-90 of Pillars, saying mostly that "This espousal of the theoretical, philosophical approach is all too apparent from the index to a recent anthology" of DTS's writings. Kapleau is bothered that there is so little mention, only 2 entries of zazen, in the index. It's not exactly an indictment of DTS. Perhaps an indictment of Watss, or the editor of the anthology, or the indexer! Kapleau does not say which anthology. So it would be great if you can add a sourced quotation from Sokei-an or Ruth Fuller re. DTS to that "comments" section. Sometimes "right speech" is just to get things into the common record and let the chips fall.  :) Phoebe13 (talk) 20:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Phoebe13, the edition of the Pillars I used is the 35th Anniversary Edition. On page 29 under the heading A Biographical Note on Yasutani Roshi one can read: "At the age of eighty zen master Hakuun Yasutani undertook an extended stay in America to expound the Buddha's Dharma. In so doing he evoked the spirit of the redoubtable Bodhidharma, who in the latter years of his life turned his back on his native land and went forth to distant shores to plant the living seed of Buddhism". About my comment on Suzuki I based it on p.96 of the same edition, where Kapleau says "This espousal of the philosophical, theoretical approach to Zen is all too apparent from the index to a recent anthology of Professor Suzuki's writings. In this book of almost 550 pages, only two references to zazen can be found, one a footnote and the other barely three lines in the text". Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of D.T. Suzuki and I think his writings are very clear and inspiring especially for our Western minds. I only want to have the citations correct. --Zen Mind (talk) 15:24, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Daisetz Teitaro Suzuki → D. T. Suzuki — Wikipedia:Most_common_name and use in article itself. —-Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

[edit] Discussion

Any additional comments:

Support D. T. Suzuki is by far the most common usage, probably based on the fact that most of his books in the US were published with 'D. T. Suzuki' as the author. A quick search on amazon confirms this. Bertport (talk) 19:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Support Thinman10 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 22:53, 7 June 2008 (UTC)