Talk:Cyberspace

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==Cyberspace==

Needs general cleanup and Wikification. There is a lot of information which needs to be streamlined, adn the history section needs to be expanded. --Kerowyn 09:03, 15 September 2005 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] Gibson: born in S. Carolina, but Canadian?

Gibson is described in this entry as "Canadian", yet the "William Gibson" entry states that he lives in Canada but was born in South Carolina. As far as I know that makes him American - unless he changed citizenships?

[edit] Vinge

An earlier description of Cyberspace (under a different name) is in Vernor Vinge's True Names. Should we mention it here? How about a list of prominent sci-fi authors who wrote about Cyberspace? --Cema 21:42, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  • If you have a citation for Vinge, go ahead and mention it under the History section of the article. Kerowyn 08:45, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

I think these references should have its own section (just made it). 84.242.86.47 06:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article in need of help

The article, as it stands now, is a brief introduction followed by a extensive and unwikified essay. From the history, it looks like an anonymous editor inserted a what appears to be a college essay on cyberspace. The good news is it doesn't appear to be plagiarized from any web source on Google. The bad news is that the article doesn't really flow and needs much more work than my expertise can give. On January 26, 2005 David Morgan Mar of Irregular Webcomic put out a plea on his website to fix the article, so you might see a number of edits on that date. --Sayeth 23:08, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that didn't happen. I'll try a little clean up though. --maru 23:36, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

the way this page currently reads, it reminds me of a sit-com episode where one of the characters uses a thesaurus to "smarten" their paper up. a sentence that originally read, "they are warm people with big hearts" turned into,"they are humid homo-sapiens with enlarged aeortic pumps." it's taking the long road to a simpler way of saying things, is waht im getting at.

Exactly, it looks like a college essay :). Not to mention a Philosophy (or possibly art?) essay. 202.180.122.181 05:09, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I have misgivings about the quotations, particularly the one about VR with different laws such as law of gravity. The example given is a nonsense, twice as much gravity is not a different law and so there is no incongruity as the quote wants to suggest.

I'd say just cut it out then - this article needs a lot of pruning...

I agree that Vinge's concept (the "Other World") has been neglected and should not be relegated to an historic footnote.

But he didn't call it cyberspace. True Names has its own page, which is a better place for the discussion of its merits and impact. Here, I think a reference is enough.

Vinge effectively described the mechanism which contributed to the 1987 sharemarket crash, which leaves one with the thought that such a crash could have been manipulated. To disown the real effects that can be caused by shoddy share-portfolio management programs in cyberspace by claiming they are "non-consequential at the ontological level", means the author probably was not alive in 1987.

Hmm, that's an interesting angle which would be nice to have in the article, but I'm not aware of any money managers imagining their software "in cyberspace" - do you have a reference? As for the "non-consequential at the ontological level", I agree that's not really saying anything and should go.

The author seems to have completely missed the point of what cyberspace is. (S)he thinks virtual reality is an aspect of cyberspace that models our reality. This is not the idea behind the relationship between virtual reality and cyberspace. Virtual reality is used as a crude copy of real space in which we can embody the more foreign concepts in cyberspace and interact with them more intuitively.

Yes, that's what the Gibson's quote is about, but is anybody taking it literally? IOW is there some visualisation system of abstract stuff complex enough to qualify as cyberspace? I've read somewhere that some oil companies have meeting rooms which are basically a 360 degree screen with viewers inside, for presentations of new oilfields - but for marketing only, not more intuitive interaction...

I recommend the whole entry be scrapped and invite Prof Vinge to write the entry.

I have to object to scrapping - I've spent enough time on it... 84.242.86.47 17:22, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I've removed two whole sections (telepresence and virtual reality) and replaced them with links to their own articles. This removes most of the truly impenetrable writing and helps to shorten the article. guiltyspark 12:53, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Totally agree with the removal - in fact, I'd like to take it further. :-) I don't think we need the two sections at all - virtual reality is already linked (in the lead section, no less) and telepresence, while relevant enough for a See also link, IMHO isn't integral to what's normally understood as cyberspace. What I'd like instead is an "Artists and cyberspace" section, analogous to Philosophy and cyberspace - i.e. http://www.ekac.org/Telepresence.art._94.html should be good enough for a quote... Objections? 84.242.86.47 17:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Chmm, now that I've tried to read it, I'm not so sure - I suppose I really don't know enough about art to write about it... 84.242.86.47 07:39, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


Just my two cents, but I think the article is in good shape. A Rip Van Winkle waking up at MIT from, say, 1960, could read it and grasp what people mean when they say "cyberspace." -- David Spalding 17:45, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

I haven't seen The Matrix, but Wikipedia tells me there are scenes in it where green letters are superimposed on "reality", unmasking it as a virtual construct determined by code. I think that would be a nice illustration of cyberspace - can anybody make a screenshot? (IANAL, but I suppose it isn't a copyright problem - certainly Wikipedia already has a lot of Matrix pictures.) 84.242.86.47 10:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Neo "sees" the code that makes up the "reality" of the Matrix once he "becomes the One" towards the end of the first movie (and apparently sees it that way from then on, but this is never explicitly stated). --Nijyo 05:52, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neal Stephensen popular reference appropriate?

One omission that's worth noting, though ... Neal Stephenson's description of the online world in Snow Crash was vivid, compelling, and IMHO utterly illustrative of cyberspace. EVEN though he called it the Metaverse. Hiro Protagonist's role in creating it, and seeing how it had developed by thousands of others "jacking in," gives a good illustration of the early cyberpunk (literature) development of the idea. Too much information, or perhaps good to add after the Gibson citation? I think the MATRIX filmmakers pretty much lifted it from Gibson, Stephenson and Philip K. Dick (short story, "Frozen Journey"), and for my money would quote Snow Crash before The Matrix. ... Opinions welcome. TIA. -- David Spalding 17:58, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be best to expand the Art paragraph (IMHO it fits there best - the whole context section already ranges pretty widely... :-) ) with something about differently called but very typical cyberspaces in SF, some predating Gibson, and illustrate with Vinge and Stephenson. 89.102.137.189 18:59, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Popular Culture

I added Ghost in the Shell. Was very surprised it wasn't mentioned at all in the article, since it borrows heavily from its predecessors, and was explicitly used in the Matrix as the stylistic reference for many visuals. --Nijyo 05:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Good addition, but let's not go overboard. After Gibson's early works, and Snow Crash, many anime and subsequent "cyberpunk" and cyberpunk-influenced works starting elaborating on the idea of cyberspace. Called the Net, Matrix, Metaverse, whatever, we could list them all ad nauseam, but to what end? The article is about cyberspace, and at some point we don't want to confuse a reader too much. Just my two cents. --David Spalding 04:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge Virtual world with this article?

Virtual world seems to discuss essentialy the same concept as cyberspace; I think those articles should be merged under here.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  21:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I strongly disagree (but with a grin). "Cyberspace" was a fictional term coined by William Gibson, and was appropriated for a time to refer to the real telecomms world of modems, BBSs, online services, and finally the Internet/World Wide Web. IMHO it's a subset of "virtual world," which can encompass virtual realities, online MUDs, online games (Xbox, PS2), even a CGI representation of, say, Coruscant, for a film's visual effects. "Cyberspace" doesn't really cover all the varieties of "virtual worlds" which have been dreamt up, innovated, or advertised. If anything, cyberspace is one or two very discrete instances of "virtual worlds." Case in point, the children's playroom in the film THE ILLUSTRATED MAN (the Serengeti with the lions), or the holodeck on Star Trek. All represent "virtual worlds," but aren't "cyberspace." Off the soapbox for now... --David Spalding 00:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Disagree. Certainly there's a lot of overlap, but this page should be about the specific term "cyberspace", its history, connotations and usage. Reading Virtual world, it looks like another kind of virtual reality, with different history and usage. Linking them is IMHO preferable to merging. 84.242.86.47 18:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Disagree. The concepts are very different. --- RockMFR 23:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I disagree as well. There is too much information in this article specific for Virtual Worlds to be included in an article about Cyberspace. A link to this article or a short paragraph about Virtual Worlds should IMHO however be included.
disagree. I haven't heard the term cyberspace being used for at least 2 years.. where I am hearing the term virtual worlds being used all the time these days. --Leighblackall 07:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
disagree. Virtual worlds are just neighborhoods in cyberspace AnneStark 19:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
disagree. But V World should be improved! Nuff said. frummer 07:33, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Formatting of large quotes

I think the Barlow and Sterling large quotes need to be in quote boxes, but I'm not certain on how to implement. If someone with more experience can do it,.... :) --David Spalding 15:54, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Moved the Hacker Crackdown excerpt to a quote box. Tempted to do it to the long-ish John Perry Barlow quote earlier in the article, but I'm not sure the Quotation format is an improvement. David Spalding | Talk 00:34, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't like it very much, personally - cquote IMHO looks better... 89.102.137.189 16:47, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] That Weiss column link

I rather liked the Slate reference - admittedly it's been used as a primary source, but I can't find any secondary source saying that "cyberspace" is now used mostly by the behind-the-curve crowd wanting to be cool, i.e. old media and state bureaucracy - which would be nice to have in the article... 89.102.137.122 09:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I concur. I thought it was only "okay," but annoying that the use of "cyberspace" was not the column specifically, but a section of the newspaper. The WHITEHOUSE.GOV link is far more compelling, as an example of crusty, conservative Washington politicos adopting it. Perhaps one by a brick 'n mortar company would work (or a university page). Just my 2¢. David Spalding 17:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I'd like to have more than one reference there (and 3 would be better than 2). I haven't noticed any brick 'n mortar companies talking cyberspace lately, but if you want crusty, what about http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/scitech/cyber/ ? 89.102.137.122 19:46, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Crusty? Heh-heh. That seems pretty legit. I'll take it. David Spalding | Talk 04:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is statement about "meatspace" accurate?

The article states: Gibson also coined the phrase Meatspace for the physical world contrasted with Cyberspace.

This statement meets the Wikipedia standard of verifiability, in that secondary sources can be found that make this claim, but I'm not sure it's true. None of the sources I've seen quote a passage from Gibson with the word "meatspace" in it. The closest I've found is taken from http://ask.metafilter.com/15851/Origin-of-the-term-meatspace:

Although he doesn't use the word 'meatspace' explicity, I think I'd credit this term in part to William Gibson's Neuromancer. He frequently uses meat as a metaphor for the physical world.

"Strapped to a bed in a Memphis hotel, his talent burning out micron by micron, he hallucinated for thirty hours. The damage was minute, subtle, and utterly effective. For Case, who'd lived for the bodiless exultation of cyberspace, it was the Fall. In the bars he'd frequented as a cowboy hotshot, the elite stance involved a certain relaxed contempt for the flesh. The body was meat. Case fell into the prison of his own flesh."

In contrast, it's easy to find secondary sources that quote specific passages that use the word "cyberspace". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thiesen (talk • contribs) 08:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cyberspace

There are more things called "Cyberspace". The term needs a "for other uses, go here" page which then can include the Cyberspace role-playing game, for instance. CapnZapp (talk) 19:53, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Y Done Skomorokh 20:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks muchly CapnZapp (talk) 21:56, 1 June 2008 (UTC)