Talk:Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon

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Contents

[edit] Physics & music

what about the large scale cinematography, lack of newtonian physics (part of the fun once you get it that the heroes are larger than life with some semi-supernatural powers), musical score....

Yo Yo Ma certainly helps. Durova 05:42, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I saw it on the super big screen and thought of the great classic epics...Spartacus, Ten Commandments......

[edit] Romance

According to Michelle Yeoh in her interview on the DVD, Li Mu Bai and Yeoh's character Shu Lien do not act on their love because Shu Lien had been engaged to someone who died, and because in that society the woman was then supposed to live the rest of her life as a widow. I saw no indication of her engagement in the movie, but it is based on a five-volume novel, so I guess some compression and shorthand is to be expected. Maybe this relationship will be explained in the prequel.

In the film, Xiu Lian does explicitly state to Jiao Long that she was engaged to Mu Bai's 'brother by oath', Meng Si Zhao. He's stated by name in their conversation. Later near the end of the film, when Jiao Long comes to visit her, Xiu Lian is seen lighting incense before a plaque bearing his name. — Southern Crane 00:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I just watched the film again last night and there is evidence of Liu Shien's earlier engagement, in one of her conversations with Jen. It's only a few lines though, but it's there.

[edit] carbon dating

Lo's telescope dates the action sometime after 1608.

This statement didn't add much information because the movie was set in the Qing Dynasty according to the hair style and clothings. Qing Dynasty didn't start until 1644? Of course, the telescope was available then.

Ang Lee explains in one CDV insert that the China of this story has no particular time period and probably never existed. Durova 05:42, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Whether Ang Lee said that or not on a VCD, I can't dispute. But the film itself does have a date because Xiu Lian's pass shown upon entering Beijing is dated: "The 43rd year of Emperor Qian Long's reign" -- 1778. — Southern Crane 00:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yuen Wo-Ping

Should mention the involvment of Yuen Wo-Ping, as in The Matrix.

[edit] TV Series

WARNING: may contain spoilor.

Starting Oct 31, 2001, Channel 26, KTSF of San Francisco is showing a Taiwanese TV drama series of CTHD in Mandarin. The show is run Monday to Friday from 10pm to 11pm. Those who live in the San Francisco Bay Area and understand Mandarin can enjoy a different rendition of the story. Since this is a long series, the story is actually stretched out with a lot of details than the movie version. Obviously, the series is based on the same Chinese novel that the movie based on. I have watched the first 2 episodes so far and already seen a lot of differences in the story. For example, Lon-Ur's (the little dragon) master is a man instead of the female Jade Fox as in the movie.

The story started at a point where Li and Yu met as strangers. By the second episode, Yu's family was already massacred. Her father sent her away on a courier mission in order to spare her from the killers. She ran to his father's best friend (Meng) for shelter and found out her husband-to-be was already 'killed'. Apparently, his face was badly burnt and he disguised himself as a servant and lied to her that the marriage arrangement was off due to his death. Since they have not seen each other since childhood, she was not aware of the lie. Li was a young man just stepped in the Jiang Wu for the first time. He tried to help Yu deal with her mourning while protecting her from the killers. As of today's episode, they were still at a great distance. In fact, those who have seen the movie know that they kept the distance until death.

(added notes on Dec 15, 2001)

The TV series ended on Dec 14 with 3 double hatter episodes on the last 3 nights. There were 34 episodes in total. A 34 hours drama series of course covers much much more of the original novel than the 2 hour movie version.

In the TV version, Meng gave up his marriage engagment with Yu because he joined the revolution against the government and he didn't want to mix personal love affair and his secret role in the underground. Li knew Meng's secret identity and tried to bring Yu and Meng together. Li felt for Yu, but being a Taoist student, he sublimed his love for Yu's well being and happiness by helping Yu to get back with her childhood lover. The love triangle went on with several unexpected turns and reversals. Meng was eventually killed by Te and Li was framed for the killing. Yu being a brainless idiot fell for the setup and became Li's enemy for a while.

The role of the Jade Fox in the movie is actually combining 3 characters from the novel. Among the 3 characters, Jen's master was a good guy, a hero. The other two, including the Jade fox, were villains.

The fatherly figure, prince Te, in the movie is actually the most vicious villain in the novel. He was an ambitious guy who plotted to take over power to became the ruler of China. He used Yu as a pawn with many plots. And the pea brain Yu failed to see the dark side of Te, didn't know Te was responsible for her family massacre, loyal to him, called him "godfather", and turned against the other heros in the story.

Jen and Lo's roles are similar to those in the movie except that Lo hid his bandit identity and gained trust from Jen's father. Jen's father actually tried to help Lo become a government official. But Lo gave up his position after he discovered Te's plot to subsititue Jen's father position with Lo's position. Being moved by Jen's father's genuine support for him, he ran away to ruin Te's plot.

At the end, Jen's master sacreficed himself to save Jen from Te. The other heros in the story united to fight Te and killed him at the end. Li didn't die in the novel. He went to experience life and explore taoism by travelling different parts of the country. But he promised to return and asked Yu to wait for him. Jen and Lo returned to the desert at the end.

The ending of the movie is totally different from that in the novel. The Jade fox role was eliminated quite early because the main plot was about Te's hidden agenda. Towards the end of the series, the green destiny sword led to a pool of Qi cuminated for hundreds of years, Te wanted to take the qi to become invincable so that he could complete his ambition to take over the country. This plot would be too crazy and foreign to the western audience.

Though the movie script was pruned so severly from the original story, I personally think the shorter story had a better theme and plot. The focus on three women's role (Jen, Yu and Jade fox) in the traditional Chinese society, actually gave the movie a totally different feel. The original novel is a typical Wu Xia story about killings, revenge, power struggle etc. and with so many weird concepts uncomprehensible by the western audience. But the rewritten screenplay added much more depth to the story which led to the good box office results.

The love triangle between Li, Yu and Meng were quite boring in the TV series. I wonder if they plan to make the prequel to the movie, they probably would not base on the original novel. The sceenplay of the first movie did wonders in deviating from the original story, I think it would be unnecessary to stick to the original novel in the prequel.

[edit] TV series adaptation of the novel

Several years ago, I watched a TV serial version of a novel imported from Taiwan. But the difference is that it was totally faithful to the novel while this movie WASN'T. Also, they both tell different stories. We know what happened in the movie, so that's enough for it. I'll say that the story of TV serial was typically compared to the rest of "wuxia" novels and adaptations like The Legend of the Condor Heroes and others, but somewhat different. 69.227.173.21 09:44, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
The TV Series is NOT "totally faithful to the novel". For example, rather than being in their middle ages like in the film and novel, both Xiu Lian and Mu Bai are in their youth. They're about the same ages as Jiao Long and Xiao Hu -- 18 and 25, respectively. Also, the setting of the TV series is in the 19th Century, while in the novel and the film it's the late 18th Century. A major plot also involves a revolution against the Manchus and restoration of Han rule, something neither the novel nor the film have anything to do with.
I have only seen a couple dozen episodes several years ago, but I recall Lui Mu Bai being much weaker than he is in this movie. In fact, there was hardly anything remarkable about Mu Bai's skill relative to the entire cast. In this movie, his ability is clearly way above any other character. (Yes, Jade Fox got him in the end but that was because he was trying to protect Jen.) I'm curious how he became this real super bad motha of a fighter in this movie. --Waterchan 07:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Neither the film nor the TV series are completely faithful to the novel, but the TV series is faaaaarr more unlike the novel than the film is. — Southern Crane 00:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sub/Dub

Does anyone know in what version CTHD was released in different English speaking countries? Subbed or dubbed or both (and in that case, the approximate ratio)? I'm referring to the cinema release now; the DVD of course includes both versions. IMDB has no info on this. Salleman 18:19, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I saw it subtitled in the UK. I'm not aware that any UK cinemas show dubbed films other than Japanimation movies. — Chameleon 18:57, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The part about the film's reception...

The article says that it was not well received in China, Taiwan and Hong Kong, but below that it lists the 20-odd awards it won in those very countries. Explain?

I'm also curious about the statement that people would not understand Michelle Yeoh's and Chow Yun-Fat's accents. The few native Chinese speakers I have talked to do not recall any strong accents. Clearly a lot of Chinese would anyhow at least occasionally read the subtitles, as they don't speak Beijing Mandarin, but that is hardly anything particular to those actors. Any sources? Mlewan 20:19, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

All of this section requires sources. The sentences that seek to explain its supposed poor reception seem to be the opinion of the editor. Sources please. Ashmoo 05:27, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree that citations are needed, but I do also recall reading a fare amount of criticism in Chinese journals and newspapers of the movies when they first came out, so I don't think that this is just one editor's opinion... I do believe it was largely perceived as a movie that attempted to pander to Western tastes (but I think Ang Lee in general has had some issues in that area). The problem is, many of these are not online articles, and they are of course, in Chinese. Is there an easy way to cite this sort of thing? I read some Chinese, but I'm more comfortable as an English speaker/reader. --68.239.232.19 20:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I was just about to start a discussion section about this, only to see it's already being discussed. I noticed the need for citations too, so included that in the article. As is, the statement about it not being more well received is more opinion than fact since the HK and Taiwanese awards and box office numbers contradict that statement.
As for mainland China, it really is left to opinion. It's highly likely CTHD would've done much better at the box office had the film been released before the market was flooded with DVDs. And there's no doubting bootleg DVDs and VCDs of this film were widely sold and shared there. But we'll never no the true impact that delay may have had on the film's reception there.
At the very least, citation is needed for HK and Taiwan, especially seeing how well the film did in both countries. Particularly, Taiwan. — Southern Crane 01:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Just because a movie wins awards doesn't mean it does well at the box office. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon was released in Taiwan roughly concurrently with Ridley Scott's Gladiator; at the multiplex that I frequented in Taiwan, Gladiator was shown on four screens simultaneously, while CTHD was shown on only one. With regards to the question of accents, imagine an historical English movie that uses actors with British, American, Scottish and Australian accents and then on top of that has them speak a traditional and archaic form of the language. Confusing, no? The dialogue in CTHD is not Bejing Mandarin, it is an approximation of traditional Chinese that is no longer spoken. This in itself would be enough to confuse and annoy any speaker of the modern language.--Baoluo 08:04, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

"imagine an historical English movie that uses actors with British, American, Scottish and Australian accents and then on top of that has them speak a traditional and archaic form of the language." That sounds like Alexsander! lol (and most other Hollzwood efforts!" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.153.72.57 (talk) 20:57, 22 April 2007 (UTC).

I think part of the perception that in China, Taiwan and Hong Kong the film was not well received is just that for those audiences it was not anything new or revolutionary. It was just a very expensive and glossy rendition of the style of wuxia film making they had seen all their lives. Not a negative reaction, just not a particularly fervent one. This is in contrast to western audiences, most of whom were probably not familiar with the wuxia films at all, who lauded CTHD as some sort of revolutionary breakthrough. Wizardkiss 02:59, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

About the only negative remarks I heard from the overseas Chinese community here in America seemed to be borne from jealousy of its success, which is typical of anything they perceive to aimed toward the west (I'm being stereotypical here, but it's certainly somewhat true). Box office numbers were quite strong in all the Asian countries for this film, so I think the contents of this article are more editorial than fact, and should be removed. -- Kev 31 January 2007

From an interview with Zhang Yimou, at http://www.monkeypeaches.com/hero/interview01.html:

Reporter: As a martial art film, CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON has been highly praised in the West, but when (it was) shown in China, some audiences even fell sleep.

Zhang: Ang Lee was educated in the West and his English is good. All subtitles of CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON were rewritten and edited by himself. Usually, during the time an actor can speak three sentences and only two sentences can be subtitled. (The sentences) are very pithy. Ang Lee would adjust the subtitles and his choice of words is right on the target. The foreigners (i.e., non-Chinese) can enjoy it fully and can be moved by it. (They) can understand (it) and can accept (it). It's totally different when we were watching it. (We watched) the original (without the subtitles), plus the Chow Yun-fat and Michelle Yeoh's (low) Mandarin level. It was very hard for the (Chinese) audiences to swallow. CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON IS made for the Western audiences and he targeted (it on the Western market). It's success was inevitable. In the US market, I think, he has set two really hard-to-break records. (One is) setting the box-office record, over 100 million (US dollars), of foreign language films, not just Chinese language, but also French and Italian language films; (the other one is getting) so many Oscar nominations and awards. Because America is strong and is a concentration of world cultures, when he won the Oscar, the world was watching. We wouldn't say these awards have the highest artistic value, but the commercial value is very high. I never dreamed to achieve those. (He had) such opportunity and talent, and CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON has achieved an unprecedented success. I really admire him. 213.65.178.166 10:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comic adaptation

Worth a mention? There were 12 volumes drawn by Andy Seto [1] (Emperor 01:04, 4 July 2007 (UTC))