Talk:CP Ships

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ships, a project to improve all Ship-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other Ship-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.
Start rated as Start-Class on the assessment scale
High rated as high-importance on the assessment scale

Contents

[edit] Canadian Pacific Steamships

This was the 19th Century name of the initial shipping company, which ran the Bombay-Calcutta-Singapore-Hong Kong-Tokyo to Vancouver transpacific routes; I would imagine also Montreal-Bristol/Southhampton but I'm not sure. Their liners were famous - the "Empress" line - Empress of India, Empress of Japan etc. I've only briefly perused the article overleaf and was wondering how to fit this in; I'd imagine as a separate article, given the different name (and logo, which I'll have to find); ties into a lot of British Columbia/Vancouver historical articles, such as the old B-C Pier (now Canada Place/Pan Pacific Hotel Vancouver/Vancouver Trade and Convention Centre...its piers/piles anyway). Many of the ships have histories of their own, too....Skookum1 18:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

further to previous, does anyone here know if the lake steamers in BC which were operated by CP were under Canadian Pacific Shipping, under the railway directly, or was there another subsidiary company which operated them? This relates to Template:Columbia River Steamboats where there's a section for operating companies, in the case of tributaries being the steamboats on Okanagan, Kootenay and the Arrow Lakes.Skookum1 (talk) 16:01, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ship's most notable incarnation

Copied from User talk:Kjet#Ship's most notable incarnation ... --Tenmei (talk) 23:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Kjet -- Please help me understand why your recent edit presents a better and more useful title than "SS Empress of Japan (1930)" -- not that I dispute that your edit is correct, not at all. In this query, I'm hoping you'll help me re-think the ramifications which play out in terms of other vessels in Canadian Pacific's "Empress fleet" -- see CP Ships#History.

In List of ocean liners, the only vessels without prefixes are the "Empress fleet;" and if RMS is the better choice for the Empress of Japan, then it follows that the other Canadian Pacific (CP) ships are best identified in a similar manner.

Unquestionably, the CP trans-Pacific fleet was created because the company gained the mail franchise, and each ship flew the Royal Mail pennant; however, the RMS article explains that, technically, a ship would use the prefix only while contracted to carry mail, and would revert at other times to a standard type designation such as "SS". The brief exchange at Talk:RMS suggests that this minor point should not be too quickly marginalized in terms of our discussion about the proper prefix for each of the Wikipedia articles about the "Empress fleet" ships.

I'm also persuaded that the exchange of views at Talk:RMS Empress of Japan (1930)#Name logic deserves our attention.

Yesterday, I changed RMS Empress of Australia (1922) to SS Empress of Australia (1922) because I'd been convinced that the Wikipedia articles actually do (or should) describe the vessel from launch to dismantling for scrap -- including the linked changes of name. If we construe the article in this way, there would be an appropriate place within one article which somehow links the article about a ship designed to be the Kaiser's toy with that ocean liner which became famous in the Great Kanto Earthquake of 1923. Do you see my point?

The question becomes not so much one of right or wrong, but rather an issue of how best to construe each of the Wikipedia articles about steamships. For example, the maiden voyage of a famously unsinkable White Star vessel in 1912 was tragically cut short, and no one would suggest that SS Titanic is better than RMS Titanic. However, I would have thought the issues we need to parse would play out differently in terms of that single ship which was RMS Empress of Australia in 1922 ... and also RMS Empress of China in 1921 ... and, before that a German ship named Tirptiz in 1914 ... and before that was built as the Admiral von Tirpitz ....[1]

You see that I have tried to parse the issues in a reasonable way, but maybe I'm missing something which has an over-riding importance.

In the same way that former Presidents of the United States are still called "Mr. President" after their terms of office have ended, for example, maybe it makes better sense to apply the RMS to articles about ships because the prefix represents the vessel at the apex of its career?

So, as I see it, the range of issues devolves into one of deciding how to proceed from this point. I look forward to reading your response to the rather open-ended set of questions I'm trying to suggest are relevant here.

In this context, please review John Wallace Thomas. The text now reads:

Born in the British Colony of Newfoundland, Captain Thomas commanded the 26,000-ton Empress of Scotland (originally named the SS Empress of Japan II) throughout the Second World War.

In terms of the range of issues I'm trying to bring out here, how would you re-write this sentence to adequately and appropriately reflect that "RMS" designation? --Tenmei (talk) 16:04, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't have the time to reply properly to you right now, so just brief pointers: During wartime the Empress of Japan / Scotland would be referred to with the SS prefix as she did not carry mail during war service. During the vast majority of her existence as Empress of Japan she was in commercial service as a mailship, therefore it is appropriate to refer to her under the RMS prefix rather than SS. By the naming convention, an article on a ship should be named after the most notable incarnation of the ship - if that incarnation was known with an RMS prefix, then the article should have one in it's name. -- Kjet (talk · contribs) 16:31, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the helpful feedback and explanation. No need to write more. Your succinct response resolves my lingering questions well enough. I'm going to copy this exchange at Talk:RMS Empress of Japan (1930)#Ship's most notable incarnation where it may prove useful to other editors. --Tenmei (talk) 12:48, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Explaining RMS

Copied from User talk:Tenmei ... --Tenmei (talk) 23:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Tenmei -- Hello. As you may have noticed, I've been keeping an eye on your edits on the Canadian Pacific ships. It's great to see those articles improved, so good work. However, I'm not sure about the "Royal Mail Ship" section that you've added to most (all?) of the Empress articles. The articles don't really need such highly detailed explanations on the meanings of the abbreviations RMS and SS - the general practice has been simply to place a link to the relevant articles. It might also be prudent to mention somewhere that the prefix differed during peace- and wartime service (although this is explained in the Royal Mail Ship article). Similarly, apart from the 1890/1891 Empresses, there's no need to explain how Canadian Pacific came to recieve the Royal Mail contract—it is not really relevant information on ships that came into service during a time when CP had already held the contract for some time.

Also a note on disambiguating ships with the same name on article texts: you should not use names like RMS Empress of Japan II, since the ship's official name was simply Empress of Japan. Instead, the year the ship entered service should be used to tell the ships apart (as in article names), hence RMS Empress of Japan (1891) and RMS Empress of Japan (1930), not RMS Empress of Japan and RMS Empress of Japan II. (Personally I've left off the year from the displayed text if only one ship with the name is linked from an article—I'm not sure what the official wiki policy is in this, if there is one).

Apart from that small criticism, keep up the good work! -- Kjet (talk · contribs) 07:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] CP Ships

Copied from User talk:Kjet#CP Ships ... --Tenmei (talk) 23:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Kjet -- Thanks again for the feedback. My tentative work-plan is laid out at CP Ships#Canadian Pacific Steamships. I see a number of advantages in disfavoring the launch date for purposes of disambiguation, but it will take a little bit of work to bring the "Empress fleet" ships into conformity with what I take to be a Wikipedia convention.

Now that you force me to parse the issues more carefully, I do see that it does make sense to emphasize the date when any ship actually comes into service (rather than merely the launch date). It looks as if this Wikipedia convention turns out to be helpful in resolving how to mitigate any confusion which results from the fact that there are three Canadian Pacific ships named Empress of China.

Please scan what I'm proposing to do; and if you have constructive comments, I'll welcome them.

(1) As for that questionable "Royal Mail Ship" section, I'm of two minds. On one hand, I might propose restoring two or three sentences in the introductory section (without creating a distinct "Royal Mail Ship" section) -- perhaps something like the following:
This Empress enjoyed the "RMS", meaning "Royal Mail Ship." This is the ship prefix still in use today by seagoing vessels which carry mail under contract by Royal Mail. Technically, a ship would use the prefix only while contracted to carry mail, and would revert at other times to a standard type designation such as "SS", meaning "Steam Ship" or "Steamer Ship." During wartime, for example, the RMS Empress of Japan would have been identified as the SS Empress of Japan.
On the other hand, each of the articles having to do with "Empress fleet" ships could be renamed "SS" rather than "RMS." There are good and sufficient reasons for keeping that RMS. However, if ships were merely distinguished by "SS," all other issues would become moot. I'm not arguing that "SS" is preferable, only that it does remain an option to be considered.
(2) As for that questionable use of numerals to distinguish vessels with the same name, your position is again correct.
In this Wikipedia context, we must bear in mind that the ship-naming conventions of the 21st century are different than those of the last century; but at the same time, we have no choice but to be mindful that Wikipedia users have been influenced by Cunard's advertising. Many, if not most users will have no trouble whatsoever in distinguishing "QEII" and "QM2," for example. In my view, at least one or two sentences are necessary to acknowledge today's shorthand way of identifying ships. That having been said, I propose using your own words as an in-line citation -- see CP Ships#Notes at n.2 -- perhaps something like the following:
A note on disambiguating ships with the same name on article texts: Although conventionally used today, unofficial names or sobriquets like RMS Empress of Japan II are not used here, since the ship's official name was simply Empress of Japan. Instead, the year the ship entered service is used to tell the ships apart when names are repeated (as in article names), hence RMS Empress of Japan (1891) and RMS Empress of Japan (1930), not RMS Empress of Japan and RMS Empress of Japan II.

This task is turning out to be a little more time-consuming than I'd originally anticipated; but there you have it. It is very clear that your feedback (and the modest "extra" work you encourage me to invest) have no object other than to burnish the quality of Wikipedia and to enhance its plausible usefulness.--Tenmei (talk) 19:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

^_^ Now you're making me feel bad for putting you through the extra trouble. If I can do anything to help, just mention it and I'll see what I can do. Then to pointers:
RMS: Personally I would perfer doing this along the lines of my edit to RMS Empress of Japan (1930), with the line "Due to being a part of Canadian Pacific's service carrying Royal Mail, the Empress of Japan carried the RMS (Royal Mail Ship) prefix in front of her name while in commercial service with Canadian Pacific." This should perhaps be expanded to include a second sentence explaining she carried the SS prefix while in troopship service. Whatever the final formatting, I would rather like this information to be incorporated into one of the other sections, rather than have it under it's own section.
RMS versus SS: ...I'm actually not quite sure if I udnerstood you correctly on this one. But presuming I did; in my experience the RMS prefix, if used, supersedes all others. For instance, no-one talk about GTS Queen Mary 2, even though she could also carry that prefix instead of RMS.
Distiguishing different ships with the same name: Since the year-of-construction-as-distiguisher -policy is a Wikipedia standard, I'm nore sure if it is truly nescessary to separately define it. In the case of the CP Ships fleet list, people will automatically see that there were several ships with that name, and in individual ship articles it might be more stylish to mention "Xth ship to bear the name" in the lead section or body text.
Relatedly to the previous, the list on CP Ships would perhaps be more informative if the ships were in chronological order instead of alphabetical? Also, I'm not sure about the term "Empress fleet", as it excludes the non-empresses. This is particularly problematic as RMS Empress of France (1928) and RMS Empress of Canada (1928) begun live as RMS Duchess of Bedford and RMS Duchess of Richmond (respectively) - as Empresses they should be included on the list, but their sisters RMS Duchess of Atholl and RMS Duchess of York would be excluded. Related to those ships, as a point on naming and notability, I'm not sure if the RMS Empress of France (1928) and RMS Empress of Canada (1928) should be referred to under those names - both enjoyed longer careers under their original names... although the conversation about the names of these ships should probably be carried out on the talk pages of the individual ships or the CP Ships article and not here.
That's it for now I guess. I'll head to bed and probably have more to say in the morning... -- Kjet (talk · contribs) 20:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)