Talk:Counterfactual history

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[edit] Counter-factual History Vs Alternative History Fiction

This entry states that there is a difference between the works of Ferguson etc and, say, The Man in the High Castle or Bring The Jubilee. Yet there is no difference as contingency dissolves all counter-factuals rendering all counter-factual speculation meaningless (this isn't my conclusion its JCD Clark's conclusion from his very poor Our Shadowed Present, which is a pro-counter-factual work). In fact in many ways the utter fictions posses more meaning and greater explanatory/analytical power because they are better metaphors (see F. Ankersmit on historical explanation). This entry also begins by stating that this meaningless parlour game is a recent form of historiography and then goes on to show that its been kicking around since the 1930s. Its not historiography either but that's a separate debate.Rykalski (talk) 17:32, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Brion, there are certain correlations but the purpose and intent of the two disciplines is entirely different; I am also concerned that the title of Alternative history is something of a misnomer for what is being described by the article. I think we will have to disambiguate this somehow. user:sjc

Er, Virtual history is also called alternate history. We need to rename the sf article so that there is no confusion in this respect. Maybe something like [Alternate history (science fiction)]? user:sjc

Would it make more sense to treat both (alternate history that knows it's fiction, and alternate history that passes itself off as scholarly work) under one topic? The historical speculation is already is mentioned in Alternate history. --Brion

This is potentially a very difficult subject. There are schools of historical study which are forming which actually argue that counterfactual history is more significant than traditional factually based history. I think the last thing we want to do is antagonise either group, provide ammunition for one or the other, etc. We need to draw a very clear division between material which is entertainment and stuff which is designed to explore a historical outcome. I'm going to cite (big size) from an article on Virtual Salamis since it exposes the pros and the cons:

BEGIN QUOTE

This method of historical study has traditionally been approved by academia: the judgement of the past based on evidence, despite the possibility of resentment that the new image may present, as in the case of the latter example. It is, nonetheless natural to ask what benefit comes from counterfactual history as it clearly goes against historical fact and therefore enters the world of fantasy. The aim of this essay is to assert the opinion that history can be studied using other approaches than the traditional analytical methods of the academic.

Traditional methods have also not proven to give unanimous conclusions, and this is no more the case than in the field of the ancient economy. Economic historians have the problem that there simply is not enough evidence to make conclusive arguments, however much they claim to do so, so academic thought on the topic is clearly divided into the primitivist and modernist school of thought, each disagreeing on the scale of economic activity. So alternative approaches to historical research may shed new light on difficult areas.

One approach to the study of history is the use of counterfactual history. This essay also intends to approach counterfactual history from an alternate angle; instead of just asking ‘what if…’ the question asked is what are the implications of an action. At first glance, the difference is not obvious. The essence is not only provision of alternative realities; it is an analysis of the value of the past reality. I used the word realities because historical events have impact on historical-future realities, by which I mean that if X happened then Y would be different. The point being that there are so many differences in what Y could be if X did not happen, there is often a variety of alternatives to explore

END QUOTE

You see why I am so keen to clearly delineate here? user:sjc

Well, "alternate history" is well-established as the name of the fictional genre. For 'serious' speculative history, we've got "virtual history", "counterfactual history", and 'also' "alternate history". How often is the latter term used thus? (I assume it was an oversight that you left it out of this article.) If the term "alternate history" overwhelmingly refers to the fictional genre, it makes more sense for that title to hold the fictional genre, with a disambiguation note at the top pointing here. --Brion

OK, that seems like a sanguinary and pragmatic solution which requires zero effort. I have a feeling that this one may run and run, though. I sincerely hope not. user:sjc

Great, I've put a disamb block at the top of alternate history until whatsoever time as we think of something better. --Brion

Cool. I'll put both the pages on my watch list. user:sjc

[edit] Does anyone remeber the "What if?" TV series?

I was doing a bunch a research and link hopping (as usual) here on Wiki, and found the Virtual history page here. I read it and remebered there was a TV series called "What If?" that was on the SciFi channel. It was about taking a certain senerio or topic that hasn't happened yet, treat it as if it has happened (or as if the opposite had happened), and kind of make a mini documetary about it. I found the IMDB section on it, but its very sparce([1]). I remeber the first three episodes only. The first was about nuclear war breaking out, the second was successful contact of alien lifeforms, and the third was if Martin Luther King had survived assasination. That's all I remeber and thought thi would contribute, and if anyone else remebered this show and had more info on it. Thanks

--Ttcfcl 18:17, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A standard or common term?

"Virtual history" in this sense seems to be pretty much limited to Niall Ferguson's work--certainly the first several pages of relevant Google hits point to Ferguson or this page or pages derived from it. I'd think for the term to get a Wiki article, it should be in more general use than among Ferguson's readership. Any citations that go beyond Ferguson and discussions of his work would help make a case for this term. Is it used by Uchronians, for example? RLetson 04:25, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think it would be better if the main article were called "Counterfactual history" and "Virtual history" just worked as a redirect--"counterfactual history" is fairly widely-used, but I can't find anyone except for Niall Ferguson using virtual history. Hypnosifl 17:54, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, I went back and read over Ferguson's "virtual history", and even he uses the term "counterfactuals", "virtual history" only seems to be used as a catchy title for the book and in one of the chapter titles. Since I've found lots of other academic authors referring to counterfactual history (see the last few external links, for example), but none using virtual history, I'm going to go ahead and change the title of the article. Hypnosifl 17:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)