Talk:Collyridianism

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[edit] some recent Muslim-Christian religious discussions in reference to the Islamic concept of the Christian Trinity

The last paragraph has some problems:

The Collyridians have become of interest in some recent

when? — The Storm Surfer 04:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

In the 20th and 21st centuries (as opposed to more "classical" religious debates of the medieval or early modern periods). AnonMoos 06:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Muslim-Christian religious discussions in reference to the Islamic concept of the Christian Trinity.

what discussions? — The Storm Surfer 04:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Here are some of the first hits from a Google search for "collyridian trinity":

The debate hinges on some verses in the Qur'an, primarily 5:73, 5:75, and 5:116 in the sura Al-Ma'ida, which have been taken to imply that Christians considered Mary part of the Trinity.

taken by whom? — The Storm Surfer 04:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Look at the above links. Some Christians debating Muslims assert that the Qur'an denounces a "wrong" Trinity (not the real Christian Trinity at all). AnonMoos 06:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

This has never been a mainstream or widespread doctrine among Christian or quasi-Christian groups at any period of history,

This is a claim that is at the same time very bold and very vague. What are the specific criteria for being mainstream or widespread? What qualifies a group as Christian or quasi-Christian?? — The Storm Surfer 04:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I reverted the addition of the "fact" tag because this article is not really the place to discuss and debate this at length -- however, the fact that it's necessary to delve into the obscure annals of heresiology (and pluck out a group about which rather little is known) in order to find any group which even partially APPROXIMATES the view that Mary, Jesus, and God form a Trinity (and of course we actually don't even know that the Collyridians had any concept of the Trinity at all, of course!) adequately indicates that this is indeed the case. AnonMoos 06:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

and has led to speculation that Muhammad was mistaken, perhaps confusing heretical Collyridian beliefs with those of orthodox Christianity.

Who is speculating this? Who is defining heresy and orthodoxy here? — The Storm Surfer 04:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

See http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Shamoun/quran_trinity.htm
The vast majority of Christian groups are "orthodox" in possessing some conception of the Trinity which does not include Mary. AnonMoos 06:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

However, there is no evidence that Collyridianism still existed in the 6th or 7th centuries A.D. (Muhammad's time).

OK, the reference dates the movement as 350–450, which might be enough to back up this claim.

Some reject the interpretation according to which the Qur'an is said to assert that Mary was part of the Trinity, as the relevant statements can be seen as emphasizing the purely human nature of Mary to reinforce the Islamic belief in the purely human nature of Jesus.

Who are these rejectors? — The Storm Surfer 04:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Muslims who reject the assertions by some Christians that the Qur'an denounces a "wrong" Trinity (not the real Christian Trinity at all). For example, the authors of http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/marytrin.html are suspicious of such assertions (though they ultimately argue that it doesn't make much difference either way). AnonMoos 06:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

And even if all that can be resolved, I'm not sure how relevant the whole thing really is. — The Storm Surfer 04:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

As an ancient heretical group which has achieved some degree of prominence in two separate contexts (feminist spirituality and Christian-Muslim relations), it's certainly deserving of its own article! AnonMoos 06:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, by "the whole thing" I only intended to refer to that paragraph. Although on second thought I can see how without this paragraph the movement might not seem notable. I hope to look into your other responses soon; I'm sorry I haven't been very timely in this matter. — The Storm Surfer 20:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)