Talk:Collectivism

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[edit] Archive

[edit] vandalism

The Triandis article explicitly talks about fascism as Vertical Collectivism om page 119 [1]. Intangible 20:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


Clearly not vandalism, Intangible. Scholars disagree on this issue. It is proper to present competing viewpoints on this page. No single editor should delete properly cited material simply because they have taken a side in a scholarly dispute. We should make it clear there is a dispute among scholars, and present readers several viewpoints.--Cberlet 21:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree. I have listed sources which discuss the Social Darwinist side of Fascist societies several times and he keeps editing them away simply because he does not agree with him. His last reason was simply "sources are bogus" though I can easily verify the sources. This whole thing is his way of getting back at me for lodging a complaint against one of his friends. Full Shunyata 12:11, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but the edits from User:Full Shunyata makee it appear that the Triandis article actually stated that Marxist-Leninist societies are an example of VC societies, which is not the case. From the article: "Finally, those societies that neither value equality nor freedom correspond to VC (e.g. fascism or the communalism of traditional societies with strong leaders) in our conceptualization." No evidence has been provided for another kind of VC typology, so I will revert your changes as well. Intangible 21:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Both of you are acting like jerks. Try a compromise rather than a revert war.--Cberlet 21:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
A compromise on what?! Page 47 of De Grand's 'Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany: the "fascist" style of rule' does not talk about collectivism, social darwinism (the term doesn't even appear in the book) or anything that even remotely suggest a relationship to this article! The only one interjecting POV into this article is User:Full Shunyata, who now has become an "expert analyst" on Hitler's Mein Kampf. Sigh. Intangible 21:38, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Interestingly the same author argues that Fascist socities were vertical individualist in the same book. Whether or not the actual term "Social Darwinism" is used the message is clear when he points out that Fascists wanted to empower "strong individuals" over "weak individuals". Full Shunyata 12:19, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Articulating Divergent Views

My apologies for not discussing here sooner. There is clearly no consensus on whether or not Fascist societies were individualist or collectivist. Quite honestly they incorporated elements of both but arguably were aimed at empowering powerful individuals. They remained firm in their support of Social Darwinism which is a form of vertical individualism that views collective concern as unreasonable. I simply edited the article to point out a more clear example of vertical collectivism which is Marxist-Leninist societies. Whether or not Fascist societies were collectivist is debatable as many Capitalist societies have strong elements of collectivism as well. No society is purely anything and it doesn't have to be. Full Shunyata 12:09, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

There are other sources than the scholar I quoted. The German militarist, Friederich von Bernhardi, praised the virtues of Darwinian war in strong evolutionary terms in his influential book Germany and the Next War. Bernhardi claimed war was a "biological necessity" and that it "gives a biologically just decision, since its decisions rest on the very nature of things." Bernhardi dismissed the idea of peaceful cooperation as a "presumptuous encroachment on the natural laws of development." and said "war is a universal law of nature." (As quoted by Ashley Montagu in Man in Process, World Pub. Co., 1961, pp. 76-77). If you want, we can edit this article together to include both views. Full Shunyata 12:26, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

So what are the major divergent views that need to be articulated for a reader?--Cberlet 14:59, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
What divergent views? You both have not provided any sources that say fascism is not vertical collectivism. I have provided sources that say it is. So until you come to the talk page with a source, this discussion is closed. All above reading by Full Shunyata are all Original Research. Intangible 20:41, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
"What divergent views? You both have not provided any sources that say fascism is not vertical collectivism." The articles I quoted talked about the Social Darwinist nature of Fascist societies. Social Darwinism is vertical individualism. These are not original reserach because both sources can be verified. Both Man in Process, World Pub. Co., 1961, pp. 76-77 and Alexander J. De Grand, Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany, Routledge, 1995. pp. 47. Mussolini himself spoke of weeding out weak individuals and promoting the strong and the Fascist Minister of Agriculture wished to strengthen private property Source: Carl T. Schmidt, "The corporate state in action; Italy under fascism", Oxford University Press, 1939. pp. 128. You can't claim something is "original research" just because you disagree with it's academic conclusion. Full Shunyata 22:05, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

As far as I am aware, "vertical collectivism" is a term coined by Triandis. Obviously you won't find anyone who contradicts his findings on VC, because no one else uses the term. So you must look at the definition of VC and see if it is consistent with the findings of other researchers on the subject of fascism. In any case, it seems that far too much time and effort has been spent on trying to figure out what societies are or aren't VC, when you should have written a more detailed description of the two kinds of collectivism and left the readers to decide what societies they apply to. -- Nikodemos 03:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I only came to this page after I noted Full Shunyata made OR changes involving Max Stirner at Individualist anarchism. Intangible 14:15, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Nikodemos, I agree. This article is very POV because much of it is written from the POV of individualists who are against collectivism. Now if collectivists edited the individualist article to write it from a collectivist POV, there would be an uproar. In fact, there is not "Anti-Individualism" section for the individualist article. I've been trying to tell Vision Thing that there is more than one type of collectivism and Fascism is obviously debateable on whether or not it is collectivist. However there is no doubt that Marxist-Leninist societies were/are VC, so it makes for a better example. Intangible, your editing and claims of OR is nonsense. There is nothing OC about quotes from Stirner himself. Simply because you disagree with Stirner's view on property is not good reason to erase mentioning his view on property. "I don't agree with this" is not tantamount with OR. You should be aware that I've noted other complaints against your baseless and frivolous selective editing and false crying of OR. Full Shunyata 06:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:No original research#Synthesis_of_published_material_serving_to_advance_a_position. Intangible2.0 09:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I looked up the talk page on Fascism and saw that subordination to the state/government is considered anti-individualistic. Given this, I understand your point about Fascism being a form "collectivism". My mistake. Full Shunyata 04:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
This is also my view. --Childhood's End 20:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Look at the Encyclopedia Britannica source in this article. It says why fascism is collectivism. A "state" is considered a collective entity. That's why Mussolini's corporate state was a collectivism. The individual was expected to sacrifice for the collective, for the state. Liberalism (protection of individual liberty) on the other hand and the economic system that naturally arises when people have freedom, capitalism, would not be collectivism, because the state serves an opposite role which is to protect the individual from being required to sacrifice for the state. It's the opposite. Liberalism is individualism. Mussollini said himself: "If the nineteenth century was the century of individualism (Liberalism always signifying individualism) it may be expected that this will be the century of collectivism, and hence the century of the State." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Goalch (talk • contribs) 17:02, 8 May 2007 (UTC).

Full Shunyata, can you provide quote from Henry Turner's book which says that there is no consensus agreement that Fascism is a type of collectivism? -- Vision Thing -- 13:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] citations

There is enough content in this article that is unreferenced to warrent the {{More sources}} tag. I have tagged those sections with {{unreferencedsect}} and {{fact}}.--Sefringle 03:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] USSR and collectivism

How can USSR or the other stalinist states be described as "collectivist" when they were ruled by regimes and crime families unaccountable to and unalterable by the vast majority. These states could be better desrcribed as extreme individualist, sacrificing the rights of all individuals for the privileges of the concentrated few.