Talk:Cloverfield/Archive 3

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[edit] Article revision

Apparently, a satellite falling from the sky is from a company who is in relations with Slusho (the man character's brother who "died" on the bridge was wearing a Slusho shirt.) Rob (main character) is going to Japan to work for the company that funded the satellite that looks for Slusho's key ingredient at the bottom of the ocean. This ingredient made in the Slusho product causes a certain crestacean to grow exponentially. The satellite is the falling object seen in this picture, landing in the site where the key ingredient is found, disturbing this fucked up monster from the bottom of the ocean who then wreaks havoc upon New York City. The monster has been dormant at the bottom of the ocean for thousands of years? I think each clip of video with Beth and Rob before the monster attacked has some signifcance or hidden image.

Based on the headlines above, I've revised the article accordingly. The Production section has more "meat" in it with an image of Escape from New York based on the cited connection. I've also revised the Marketing section now that producer Bryan Burk verified Slusho and Tagruato as part of the viral marketing campaign. Feel free to review my edits and make the appropriate changes. Since it's the month leading up to the film, keep an eye out for headlines to help expand the article! —Erik (talk • contrib) - 19:09, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Just goes to show, patience is a virtue. --Closedmouth (talk) 07:57, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

-Hey I found this website after going to Slusho... http://slusho.mblade.iloopmobile.com/History.ftl —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deathtrooper (talk • contribs) 19:30, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cloverfield meaning

I didn't see it mentioning that Cloverfield was a military name for the case of the monster attacking it, and also Incident Site U.S. 447, reffering to Central Park, I can't put it in, I'm not an "established user". So if someone see's that this is liable to submit, please do so. DarthTader90 (talk) 20:56, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Could this have some meaning? http://www.greatoldone.com Kams912 (talk) 23:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it 'could'. Does it have some meaning? SOME meaning. "Does this have a relationship to the Cloverfield film?" you ask? uh... not unless YOU can prove it does. ThuranX (talk) 00:19, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I think that site refers to the works of H.P. Lovecraft, which this movie has no confirmed connections to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.112.66.245 (talk) 00:13, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
The source code of the home page at greatoldone.com list in the meta keyword section "cloverfield" so the author intends it to be connected. Though whether it's in any way official is speculation.Iandorman (talk) 07:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't know if this helps, but I saw the preview when I went to see I am Legend and from what I could put together, Cloverfield IS the name of the case. It could be like a cover name for what happened in New York. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.136.223.186 (talk) 02:18, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Cloverfield actually refers to Central Park after the monster attacks.--Kondrayus (talk) 21:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The article says: The director said that "Cloverfield" was the government's case designate for the monster, comparing the titling to that of the Manhattan Project. "And it's not a project per se. It's the way that this case has been designated. That's why that is on the trailer, and it becomes clearer in the film. It's how they refer to this phenomenon [or] this case," said the director. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 22:02, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

One possible meaning I have pondered is this: When clover seeds blow into a field, they spring and often taking over quite rapidly. I've also noticed from infestations of clover in my own yard that they are nearly impossible to kill; if even a single fragment of the root is left it will usually regenerate, much like the monster, hence the designation "cloverfield." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.191.27.87 (talk) 05:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

yeah it could have a few double meanings. one other idea is that is simply what they have renamed central park now that it has become an abandoned wasteland perhaps. the clover seeds make more sense actually but you never know. Madhatter9max (talk) 10:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Or...cloverfield is the street where the party starts, given the location of the spring street station off the lex line. Was not impressed with the movie - its a bad ripoff of the old anthony edwards film 'miracle mile', substituting a monster for a nuclear war, but otherwise plot intact. Even the ending was darn near identical. Have producers no original ideas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quaddriver (talk • contribs) 15:36, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

high 5 on that. it's miracle mile, meets godzilla, meets blair witch, meets 9-11, meets youtube. all compelling in their own way, and perhaps all together in one movie, if you're only watching it once. did anyone notice the parasite spiders made a noise like donald duck when he flips out? made me giggle. spoiler prevention: dont sit at the front of the theater, you'll get dizzy following all that scrambly footage.

As it says lower down on the talk page at the moment, Cloverfield is the name of the MONSTER, not the site of the video. The article currently says otherwise. Correction needed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.208.248.60 (talk) 23:20, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

During the opening graphical sequence the line "Incident:Cloverfield" is seen near the bottom left. I assumed the Cloverfield designation was a case file designation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iandorman (talk • contribs) 07:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Isnt the shape of an Atom bomb often referred to as a clover? Since the movie ends in a field in central park, the title could be refering to that scene. 71.33.38.221 (talk) 02:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC) 1/20/2008 JS

[edit] Add

Since this page is protected, can anyone add the NL wikipedia page to the other languages, being nl:Cloverfield? Thx! 217.136.242.115 (talk) 15:53, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Done. Best regards, Steve T • C 15:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Please also add the details of the MySpace promotional campaign and preview screening which can be found at www.myspace.com/blackcurtainuk where MySpace uses can win tickets to a screening on the 27th January. —Preceding unsigned comment added by James2howard (talk • contribs) 13:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Can someone add that in the last scene of the movie, something is clearly seen falling from the sky into the water? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoonishere (talk • contribs) 07:44, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I reiterate the previous statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.109.5.209 (talk) 07:22, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

There has been some argument over the ending of the film. I think that it should be mentioned in the article

It's being disputed elsewhere on this page. DurinsBane87 (talk) 07:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Review?

This has been circulating the internet, is there any truth and should this be noted? It includes set links and a highly detailed review including a description of the monster (warning of possible spoilers)

http://forum.ebaumsworld.com/showthread.php?t=235157

Also if this turns out to be true should the early review be noted? Mavrickindigo (talk) 18:42, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that it qualifies as a reliable source. We shouldn't sacrifice reliability to rush such details to the forefront of the article. The film is coming out soon, so there will undoubtedly be reliably sourced reviews and coverage. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 21:04, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

That review's fake, anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.63.95.177 (talk) 11:48, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Right now this is being regarded as the most credible review: http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=23357

SPOILERS!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.209.227.3 (talk) 20:16, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, AICN has a more detailed review as well. http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35236 --68.97.75.170 (talk) 22:40, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Since all the bullshit reviews above have been debunked, can this section be erased?137.165.208.48 (talk) 21:04, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Whatever, Neil Cumpston's review is the best - http://www.aintitcoolnews.com/node/35100 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.232.56.109 (talk) 22:24, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Corrections

The page states that after the credits the audio of "It's still alive" can be heard in reverse. What you hear in the theatre is "Help us," and when reversed, the sound is "It's still alive." I thought this should be mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.109.134.174 (talk) 09:46, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry; dont have a wikipedia account, but noticed an error in the article someone may want to correct. There is no such thing as 'argnet.com'. The name of the site is ARGNet, but the URL is argn.com. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.6.115.81 (talk) 05:27, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for alerting that! I changed it. =] --Wachapon2 04:04, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is another review. http://www.joblo.com/arrow/reviews.php?id=1222 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aus simon (talk • contribs) 01:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't have a wikipedia account, but in the Plot Summary, there's a line to the effect that"A presumably nuclear explosion rocks all of Manhattan and seems to kill them both, and the camera is covered in rubble." If this was the case, shouldn't an electromagnetic pulse have wiped the video tape that was found? Should that line be changed to "A large explosion" or something? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.198.61.204 (talk) 02:18, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the above post. The explosion at the end of the film was absolutely not a nuclear explosion. The monster was right over them at the ending and if it was a nuclear weapon, the screen would have just gone blank. Also, the tape would have been completely incinerated. It was heavy, heavy bombing, not a nuclear option. Perhaps multiple JDAMS? At any rate, I agree that the wiki should be corrected accordingly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.211.249.250 (talk) 07:31, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

the explosions at the end were most likely Fuel Air Bombs

Another bit... the site isn't designated Cloverfield. It's designated "US-433, formally Central Park" (or Manhatten, can't remember which). The monster is designated as "Cloverfield". Just thought that was worth correcting. As for the bomb... definiately not nuclear. Actually, the most likely bomb is the MOAB. Aruisdante (talk) 21:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Right on both accounts. US-433 used to be central park, which is presumably where the video was found. (in fact, i think they might say that in the opening sequence, i can't remember.) Also, the bomb can't be nuclear, as the emp from the blast would have wiped out the tape. It was just a hell of a lot of conventional bombs. Fuel air bombs aren't unlikely either, those would cook the beast to death.

Hey guys, just wondering if anyone could change the last bit where it says the monster resembles Sin and whatnot. Either put in a note saying that one of the CONCEPT monsters resembled it or remove it entirely, maybe? Because the actual monster looked nothing at all like Sin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.136.148.3 (talk) 07:52, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Haven't seen the movie yet, but if it has spawns that leap out of it, its at least noteworthy--Pyrzqxgl (talk) 08:06, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, but spawning creatures hardly means it resembles Sin. It's just not important enough to note. I mean, you could say that those crabs and scorpions that carry eggs on their back until they hatch resemble Sin if you want to be that vague. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.136.148.3 (talk) 08:27, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Nothing like Sin!--Pyrzqxgl (talk) 10:31, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Grunberg involvement

Speaking of errors, Greg's not in the movie. [1] Just thought I'd bring it up here first. I don't have much more in way of a reference. And frankly, I don't feel very "bold". Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 09:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

No worries, Ace. I'll take care of it. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 12:35, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Done; and here's a direct link if anyone for any reason doubts the photo, with it being at a blog and all. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 12:42, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tagline

I added the tagline. I thought it was kind of important, but I see you've taken it off. Just wanted to say sorry about adding that. Beachdude0213 (talk) 01:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Why post an apology for something people didn't want in the article...? Fllmtlchcb (talk) 07:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Nokia cellphone Advertisng

The movie showed varios advertising of Nokia cell phone products plus a huge poster when the trio were trapped underneath the Subway Nokia cellphone as the most used phone by both the main char and the extras —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.50.46.254 (talk) 22:00, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Manga prequel?

Should it be mentioned? http://www.kadokawa.co.jp/tachiyomi/comic/cloverfield/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.148.96.132 (talk) 11:36, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe it should be put in as J.J. Abrams did actually ask for the manga to be created so people would know the origins of the monster and what happened before it attacked, however it will only be released in Japanese and it will be a series of 4 books. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.215.64.7 (talk) 20:22, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Just wondering if you have a link or something to where J.J. Abrams mentioned that or where its posted. Rosario lopez (talk) 23:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It says on page 22 of the manga 'Produced by: JJ Abrams' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.215.64.7 (talk) 02:57, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] already showing

there were sneak previews all around salt lake city yesterday. surely someone must of posted a blog about what it really is that can be added to the article. 71.219.78.10 (talk) 19:35, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/4359287a1860.html

"Eager fans will be pleased that they get to see the monster that’s terrorising New York – although they might have wished otherwise afterwards. It’s an almost indescribable stumpy behemoth, and he’s invited a few smaller friends along for his trail of terror."

http://blogs.theage.com.au/schembri/archives/2008/01/cloverfield.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.219.78.10 (talk) 19:41, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Nobody wants to mention it because it isn't true until the movie comes out. That's the way Wiki is run. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.76.185.79 (talk) 23:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I think you mean it isn't true until it's filmed and edited, and any mention of it before it's release is a reflection of the current state of the movie and can be changed accordingly. Then again, that's moot anyways, since the movie did come out. Unless the movie theatre is going to be getting a revised version of the film for tomorrow. --72.137.47.204 (talk) 09:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Uhh, the movie is out. In New Zealand. And Stuff is a New Zealand website. (I just saw it today, for instance.) So, now's the time to get started on a plot section. --Dom (talk) 02:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Hey, that guy's right but the article is edit protected at the moment! Some user's from Australia and New Zealand have already seen this film but can't add to the article!

Can we get something done about this?--124.176.26.182 (talk) 05:14, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Why is the entire plot revealed on Wikipedia? That's just bullshit. Thank christ I saw the film before reading.220.239.27.85 (talk) 10:35, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

That's why I avoided this page until I saw a sneak preview on Wednesday. If you don't want to know the plot why would you go on the internet and read a section entitled "Plot"? Mad031683 (talk) 16:24, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What the hell happened to the spoiler warnings?

How long have all the spoiler warnings from TV/Film/Book (etc) articles been gone?! Seriously I just ruined the whole film for myself by accidentally reading something like "removed as this is actually a spoiler without warning". Any chance of getting the warnings back? FreemDeem (talk) 11:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Not sure exactly, but were you reading the section called "Plot"? If so you should have assumed it would tell you the plot. And that's probably why spoiler warnings aren't needed for a such a section. Just a guess.VatoFirme (talk) 11:37, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi. I ask you this out of a genuine desire to gauge your opinion on the spoiler issue, which has been the subject of much debate in recent weeks (and months): firstly, reading the Plot section, what was it you expected the section to contain? Secondly, do you think the same thing would have occurred were the section to have been titled Plot summary or similar? Best regards, Steve T • C 11:41, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the sarcasm guys, much appreciated. I was scrolling down to a section below the plot part and didn't even realise the film had been released yet. Besides, the article had a plot section before it had been released but it was only speculation. Maybe there should be clearly visible spoiler warnings on articles like this, and perhaps even a "hide section" function.

FreemDeem (talk) 11:49, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to be sarcastic, I was being dead serious. Sorry if I worded that badly or if it came across like that to you.VatoFirme (talk) 11:53, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
You guys don't think you're pushing it considering the film isn't out until Friday? Alientraveller (talk) 11:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
out in America Friday... it's already out in AZ and AU (if this wasn't the case then i'd agree with you) harlock_jds (talk) 11:49, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Hey, FreemDeem, read my reply to you again. I was attempting to genuinely gauge your opinion on the matter, even going so far as to include a caveat to indicate I wasn't being a tool. All the best, Steve T • C 12:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Comment removed by authorGwynand (talk) 13:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)(talk) 12:44, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Comment removed by author I'd genuinely like FreemDeem to come back and answer my good faith questions. Steve T • C 12:50, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Just a little light humor, I couldn't help myself, but now have removed it. Now a more good faith response. It appears that there is a growing consensus leaning towards not containing plot spoiler tags before plot sections. In many cases, I think this is the obvious choice, as to not clutter up thousands and thousands of pages for something that should be obvious. However, in cases such as this, where a movie has yet to be seen by 99% of interested viewers, I'm not sure a plot spoiler tag would be totally inappropriate. The problem then becomes, what is the consensus on how long is should stay up, what films should be included in such a designation, etc. It appears that, for now, the fact that the section is titled "Plot" is considered enough of a spoiler warning on its own.Gwynand (talk) 13:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Replying to comment by Steve, I think Plot Summary is better than Plot because Plot could be speculation as to what the plot of a film contains but Plot Summary makes it clear that it is actually a detailed outline of the plot. FreemDeem (talk) 14:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I'll be asking similar of all who bring up the issue on the pages I watch. I'm just trying to gauge opinion. To be honest, I'm pretty ambivalent about it, but I wouldn't particularly be against any move to change the manual of style to recommend such titling. All the best, Steve T • C 14:21, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Personally I don't think the "plot" section needs a spoiler warning. But if other sections outside the plot, such as the production notes, reception, etc. have spoilers they should be labeled.VatoFirme (talk) 12:01, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

FreemDeem, if you want to add a spoiler warning to the plot section, put this

:'''Note''': ''This section contains spoilers''

under the ==Plot summary== heading. Be advised than an editor will likely remove it in a day or so, but it can be done. --Pixelface (talk) 20:41, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Per WP:SPOILER, any spoiler warnings contained in an article are removed. True enough that you ruin a story by reading it's summary on Wikipedia, however, the only advice anyone can give you is to just not read the article. Anything else would be against Wiki Policy. Fox816 (talk) 21:25, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
They're removed by mainly one editor. That is not consensus. That guideline is disputed and does not describe current practice. --Pixelface (talk) 22:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
It may be disputed but it does describe current practice, that's why the spoiler template was deleted. If their removed mainly by one editor, its because he got there before I did. Mad031683 (talk) 23:00, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
It actually doesn't describe current practice. And the {{spoiler}} template was deleted when there was no consensus to delete it. FreemDeem can just paste the text I posted. --Pixelface (talk) 03:38, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
It wouldn't be current practice if there were still spoiler warnings in articles or they weren't removed on sight. As of now, policy states no spoilers. If it changes then we'll follow that. Either way, I'm just saying there's no point in placing a spoiler tag in an article or encouraging others to place one in since it will be taken out. It'll only start an edit war. The only way to change that is to reform policy. Fox816 (talk) 03:54, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I read one plot summery...got pissed off...and learned the policy, now I know what "plot" actually means in wikipedia and read articles accordantly. This discussion happens on every new movie and new book coming out, and it seems that Spoiler tags don't have a long life span in spite of the frequency in which they are discussed (that may not be consensus, but its pretty damn close). I just saw the movie, and was about to post a section on this discussion board titled "Plot=Spoiler" as a pre-emptive strike, but it seems someone beat me to the punch.Coffeepusher (talk) 07:40, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

This policy is stupid. A lot of people who might not know about this movie or heard about it from a friend might goggle and click directly here. Then they get the entire film ruined for them. The plot should be a summary of what the movie is basically about without ruining the fun parts of it. I read this after seeing the movie last night and said, crap I could have saved myself $8. Not everyone who googles and clicks wikipedia knows your bad policy at least offer the plot on a 2nd page with a warning link at the minimum.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.226.87.31 (talk • contribs) 17:42, January 19, 2008

This is an encyclopedia. Have you ever read a volume of Encylopedia Britanica that had spoiler warnings? HalfShadow (talk) 17:45, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Have you ever read the ending of a film in Encyclopedia Britannica? --Pixelface (talk) 19:33, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
That isn't even a point. In fact, if anything, it actually makes my point stronger. HalfShadow (talk) 21:06, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I suggest moving the discussion to WT:SPOILER. We're not really talking about the film anymore here. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 21:08, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I'd like it if this didn't turn into another Eastern Promises, please. Steve T • C 21:11, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
That's all I planned to say. 21:14, 19 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by HalfShadow (talk • contribs)
No, we're not talking about the film — we're talking about this article, which is what talk pages are for. I've already explained how what FreemDeem wants can be done and that's the last I'll say about it here. --Pixelface (talk) 21:25, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Lol, i just checked back and noticed someone had edited the spoiler out of my original comment. That made me laugh. No other real point to this comment. FreemDeem (talk) 19:48, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Viral website screenshot

I'm not too crazy about this current website screenshot under "Viral tie-in". Does anyone think it adds much? There's screenshots to consider from the film itself, and none of the images in the article are from the film itself. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 14:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm not sure it really harms things either. It seems more prominent because there's a lack of images in most of the other sections, and once this article has expanded it would probably fit in reasonably OK, as long as all fair-use considerations are covered. Best regards, Steve T • C 14:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I guess we'll see what can come up. On a parallel point, I was wondering, could we add a screenshot of the people taking pictures of the severed head of the Statue of Liberty? It'd be relevant to the context in Production, and it'd be a direct tie to the film. For the influencing poster, it's easy to access it by visiting the article for Escape from New York. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 15:32, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
You thinking a direct comparison, one above the other, like they've got with the images of the gamma-ray machine over on the Hulk article? Steve T • C 15:40, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
No, I was referring to the director talking about the contemporary nature of people recording incidents with their own devices and having a screenshot of them doing that for the severed head from the film. It wouldn't be a rationale related to the Escape from New York poster, but the poster context can still be kept. There's a wiki-link to Escape from New York so they can view the poster itself there. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 15:46, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Sounds good. Have you seen a decent copy of the image lying around anywhere? I'm struggling to find one. Steve T • C 09:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
There's a whole bunch here http://projectcloverfield.com/screencaps. None have people taking pictures, just the head sliding with sparks. Hope I helped! Itsjoshyo (talk) 05:51, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The photos flip over (hold on to the photo and move the mouse up and down like you are shaking the photo). Two are in English and one is in an Asian Language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.120.93.246 (talk) 15:16, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Quickie consensus

An editor removed the line in the reception section which related to Scott Foundas' criticisms of the 9/11 allusions. Had he not mentioned the World Trade Center in his review, I'd perhaps agree with the removal of the line, but I think his statements are unambiguous enough to let it stand. It's a trivial matter, but I'd still like to open this one out to the floor... Steve T • C 21:26, 17 January 2008 (UTC)