Talk:Claude Auchinleck

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[edit] Style issue discussion

There is a discussion going on here whether or not the first sentence of a biographical article should contain the full name of the individual and include any post nominal initials (eg. VC, KCB, OBE) or whether these should be relegated to later in the article. I have tried to point out that this is standard style and part of their full titles but there are “readability” concerns. This arose because of the Richard O’Connor featured article and one possible solution, a biobox, is now in place on that page. Please make your opinions known. Dabbler 12:14, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] World War I

He must have been doing something...

can someone come up with good reference especially for last paragraph.

According to Philip Warner's biography (Auchinleck: The Lonely Soldier):

Auchinleck went to Egypt with his regiment in October 1914 to fight the Turks. In December 1915 they went to Mesopotamia and took part in the attack on Kut-al-Amara. After a brief leave in India in August 1916, Auchinleck rejoined his regiment for the march on Baghdad. He subsequently became Brigade Major of 52 Brigade and after the armistice with Turkey in October 1918 held staff appointments in the 1919 campaign against Kurdish rebels. During the First World War he learned important lessons that were of benefit to him as a General over 20 years later, such as the folly of frontal attacks against heavily prepared positions and the vital necessity of preparing and equipping troops properly before committing them to battle.

Added some details, but no ref yet to Kurdish actions. Folks at 137 22:49, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Place of birth?

Tim Collins' programme on Auchinleck last night stated he was born in Fermanagh and lived there before joining the army. This seems to say the same. Anyone know for sure? Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 12:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The main source for Aldershot as the Auk's birthplace is John Keegan's "Churchill's Generals", p 131. There is no mention of any childhood period in India, but seems to otherwise be detailed. The "Dictionary of Ulster Biography" that Stubacca refers to seems reasonably complete on the Auk's military career but misses important detail of his childhood, eg, father's early death. Given that the relevant portion in "Churchill's Generals" is by Philip Warner, who wrote a biography of Auchinleck, I would support Aldershot as most likely to be correct. I will mention the difference, however. This site ([1]) supports Aldershot and even gives the address! Folks at 137 17:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, pretty big mistake by the BBC if there is no Ulster connection, including him on a programme called the Ulster Generals. Several other sources state Fermanagh, Northern Ireland or Ulster.[2] [3] [4] [5] The family definitely seems to be from Ireland. It seems unclear whether he was born in Ireland, or in Aldershot where his father was stationed at the time of his birth. Do you have Churchill's Generals? Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 07:51, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes I do have a copy: it was on my knee as I typed - there are several Auchinleck biographies mentioned so I expect that they would support Aldershot as the birthplace. "...pretty big mistake by the BBC..." - depends whether the BBC takes responsibility for the content or whether it was by an external production company. There other sites (excluding ones derived from Wiki) that say Aldershot: [6], [7], I have seen a site ([8]) that says the Auchinlecks were Ulster Scots who settled in Co Fermanagh: his father served with the Royal Horse Artillery and was stationed in Aldershot when Claude was born (it doesn't say but it's a reasonable assumption that the family were together). On balance, I'd prefer a source that has a supporting bibliography, rather than the ones without citations. Folks at 137 17:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Do you have Warner's biosgraphy? Google Books only has a limited preview, making one mention of Fermanagh. Even if he wasn't born there, I think it is worth mentioning the family are from Fermanagh. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 13:12, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I don't have any bio on Auk apart from the chapter in "Churchill's generals", but I'll keep an eye on this and try to get more citations. Folks at 137 17:09, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Bernard Montgomery is also in the programme according to the same web site and he was born in London, I think they were looking at generals with Ulster ancestry and family connections. Montgomery's family came from Donegal (historical Ulster). Alanbrooke was born in France and he too is considered an "Ulster general" in the programme. Dabbler 11:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, Montgomery considered himself "Irish and a Donegal man". Donegal is in Ulster, not historical Ulster. Auchinleck may have actually been born in Ulster, but with the conflicting sources it is hard to say. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 11:50, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Received from the National Army Museum in London:

"Thank you for your email of 11 July.

The three biographies (listed below) that we hold in this Museum and his entry in The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography state that Field Marshall Sir Claude Auchinleck was born in Aldershot.

Field Marshall Auchinleck by Alexander Greenwood (Aldershot, Pentland).

Auchinleck the Lonely Soldier by Philip Warner (Aldershot, Buchan & Enright, 1981).

Auchinleck by John Connell (Aldershot, Cassell 1959).

I hope that you will find this information useful."

I think that settles it. Auchinleck was born in Aldershot into an Ulster family. Folks at 137 16:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

It certainly does, good job contacting them. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 21:31, 18 July 2007 (UTC)