Talk:Circumcision/Archive 30

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Contents

Frenectomy in the intro paragraph

Jakew and the Cabal claim bias with inclusion. See their comments above.

I reiterate that because frenectomy in integral to circumcision ... required to complete ~25% of circs, only done along with circs, and potentially caused by circs ... the reader should have reference to the procedure in the intro. Again, it is a critical component of circumcision. See the intro that existed for years before the Cabal deleted...

Circumcision is the procedure that removes some or all of the foreskin (prepuce) from the penis. The frenulum may also be cut away at the same time, in a procedure called a frenectomy. The word "circumcision" comes from Latin circum (meaning "around") and caedere (meaning "to cut").TipPt 15:53, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Based on my above discussion with Jakew, it is clear that a majority of the sources cited in the procedures section make reference to the frenelum as well as the foreskin. I would suggest fine tuning the above wording, perhaps by removing the word "away" since apparently the frenelum may also be cut through without being removed. Whatever the particular phrasing, I agree that the frenelum should be included in the definition of circumcision since it is clearly a part of the penis involved in the procedure. Zandrous 11:06, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Given the discussion above, it sounds reasonable to me to include mention of the frenulum in the intro. --Coppertwig 22:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

It appears that there is sufficient evidence to include mention of the frenelum in the intro. Now the question becomes, do we have sufficient sources to mention frenectomy specifically, or just the frenelum as a part of the penis involved in the procedure? I could not find mention of frenectomy in the sources that TipPt provided links to in the above section entitles "Avi Reverts Away Frenectomy." TipPt, if I am missing something could you direct my attention to the mentions of frenectomy? Zandrous 12:52, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Frenectomy has its own article, and, in my opinion, while it should be referenced somewhere in the section on methodology, it is inappropriate for the lead. -- Avi 14:38, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree. However, I think mention of the frenelum belongs in the definition in the lead. Zandrous 17:08, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
This article is about circumcision in general. The frenulum is a detail that may or may not be involved. It doesn't belong in the lead. Jayjg (talk) 01:20, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

TipPt's continued lack of civility

For someone who “honestly apologized” for inappropriate remarks about other editors, espcially vis-a-vis use of the term “cabal,” on July 15, your further posts, Tip, are indicative of your insincerity, and perhaps duplicitousness, as can be seen from

-- Avi 14:46, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Positions of National Medical Associations

I updated the positions of the national medical associations with careful citations and the updates were removed. For instance, the article incorrectly states that the Canadian Pediatric Society "does not recommend routine circumcision". That was their 2004 position. Since 2007, they recommend that routine circumcision "should not be performed". I quoted the new position and cited it and yet my update was removed. It is simply not honest to pretend that they still just do not recommend the procedure, when they now actively recommend against it. Similarly, I cited the position statements of the Royal Australasian College of Physicians and their New Zealand counterparts stating their position that routince circumcision should not be performed. These too were removed from the article. It is not honest to pretend that these organizations do not recommend against circumcision.

Edwardsville 16:09, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

First, the source you cited is dated 1996, not 2007. It notes that a revision is in progress as of May '07.
Second, your claim that "This is a significant change from earlier policy, which was simply not to recommend circumcision." was completely unsourced and violated WP:NOR.
Third, they do not state that they recommend against the procedure. They do, however, comment on the specific case of circumcision as a routine procedure: "The overall evidence of the benefits and harms of circumcision is so evenly balanced that it does not support recommending circumcision as a routine procedure for newborns."
Finally, your "quote" from the RACP is not their recommendation but is itself a quote from a third party. Jakew 16:28, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I cited the wrong page. Thank you for pointing out my mistake. I should have cited [7]

The claim that it is a strenghtening of the old policy is confirmed by the citation at the end of the paragraph, like everything else in the paragraph.

If you find the lack of the word "routine" misleading (and you shouldn't, since no medical association is against the prodedure when there is a medical reason) you could have just removed the word.

The correct place for the RACP quote is here. [8]

Edwardsville 16:52, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Hey - you also removed citations showing that the American Medical Associations, and the other national medical associations in the west, say that circumcision is painful and anesthetic should be used.

Edwardsville 18:12, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Seixas Family?!?

There is text beneath the picture on top of the article that says:

Seixas Family circumcision set and trunk, ca. eighteenth century Wooden box covered in cow hide with silver implements: silver trays, clip, pointer, silver flask, spice vessel.

Which "Seixas Family"? There is mention of some Seixas Family in this text without explaination (or helpful wikilink) about what or who this Seixas Family is. This should be fixed to avoid confusion.

Also, this picture of little wooden box looks creepy in its context. --antiXt 20:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Uhm,... anybody!?! Please do not ignore - do something constructive instead of constant fighting. Both sides. --antiXt 17:56, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Follow the image link, it is a library of congress picture. -- Avi 16:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't say which "Seixas Family" is this about, so it would be good to either put an helpful wikilink or remove information (in this article) that this creepy wooden box belongs to/belonged to some "Seixas Family". And why is "Seixas Family" capitalized like that? --antiXt 13:55, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Come on, please do something about it instead of constant fighting about petty details! --antiXt 16:42, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I followed the image link, and did not find any useful information not already provided except that the image can also be viewed at the Library of Congress website; however, I didn't find any text page associated with it there. (I suppose there probably is, but I don't know how to find .t I tried "Search", for example.) I find that the information provided with images at Commons is usually woefully inadequate.
I suggest deleting the name "Seixas", since we don't know who they are, and beginning with just "Family ...". --Coppertwig 16:57, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Dispute tag

The dispute tag is accurate. There's currently dispute as to whether circumcision is (always) surgery, and whether the strongest statements from medical association position statements can be quoted in the article. Also the large section on religion occurring before much (or any?) mention of any harm or risk has been pointed out as being non-neutral. Etc. --Coppertwig 22:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Nevertheless, although what the dispute tag says is accurate, it was not appropriate to put it on this article at this time, at least not in the way it was done. See Template:dispute and Wikipedia:Accuracy disputes. To use the dispute tag properly, I think you have to have disputes about at least five parts of the article, and you have to state clearly what they are and have a link from the tag to a section of the talk page that lists them. The tag only had a link to the top of the talk page. There has to be a way to know whether the disputes which were the reason for the tag have been resolved. The disputes I'm aware of don't seem to me to be enough for the disputed tag, and especially not the totally-disputed tag. I apologize for having commented above without first reading the instructions for dispute tags. (There are, however, some ongoing disputes that still need to be resolved.)

When adding, removing or changing dispute tags or other tags at the top of the article, please say in the edit summary exactly what tags you're changing. The article is no longer semi-protected, so please don't put a semi-protected tag on it. --Coppertwig 17:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Removed "Skin Bridge" Photo

I believe this photo was removed because it was obviously of an underaged child.71.198.175.226 22:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm confused as to which image you mean. Does that explain this edit? [9] To reduce confusion, editors should state the reason in the edit summary. --Coppertwig 16:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

To clarify, the photo showing an example of the skin bridge was removed but it has since been put back up by another use. It clearly appears to be the photo of an underage male, and as far as I know this is not legal to post even in medical use. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Why would it be illegal; it is not pornographic? -- Avi 21:02, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
It's still not clarified. Someone didn't sign their post, but worse than that, they didn't specify which image they're talking about. --Coppertwig 21:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Arbitration of content

The issue is content. The circumcision article is not factual in it's omission of highly pertinent facts, it's emphasis on relatively irrelevant information, and it's gross misrepresentations of fact.

I won't raise related issues again, and will have a concise list of topic problems in about a week.TipPt 19:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Photos?

Any reason why the uncircumcised photo is poor-quality, dark, and features an unkempt hairy man, while the circumcised photo is well-lit and featurs a well-groomed man? Hmm... anyone care to fix this obvious bias? 65.94.108.200 17:46, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Because wikipedia is evil and is engaged in a secret mission to emasculate all men through "circum-rays" emitted from your monitor as you innocently browse the project .
Seriously (and if you could not understand the above as tongue-in-cheek humor, Oy Vey!), those two pictures are excellent foils, because they depict the penis in almost the same exact style regarding angle towards the camera, relative image size, and, of course, flaccid vs. erect. Perhaps someone with Photoshop can brighten the uncircumcised one? -- Avi 18:06, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
There's nothing wrong with hair or with dark skin. --Coppertwig 21:46, 9 August 2007 (UTC)