Talk:Christmas/Archive 6

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Image

I just wanted to cange the image deleted (?) with equivalent Image:Adorazione del Bambino - Beato Angelico.jpg --Sailko (talk) 15:56, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

In the very first paragraph, there are two sentences which stood out as completely out-of-place and bad writing style. I suspect they are vandalism by the user "Kazuba" who, according to the editing history, added this text:

07:14, 18 December 2007 (hist) (diff) Christmas‎ (Christmas) "There is no mention of Christmas being celebrated by the early Christians in the New Testament. This holiday celebration is not supported by scripture. It was created by Pagan Christians. Christianity did not destroy Paganism. Paganism absorbed Christianity adding it's tradions and Pagan touch: holidays, song, dance, pageants, art, the giving of gifts, and music to it, etc. Otherwise Christianity would not have survived."

First of all "song, dance, ... music" -- very bad style. Secondly, "and music to it, etc." -- very, very bad style.

Thirdly, this clearly presupposes that christianity is accused of killing off pagans and tries to dispel this supposition. This also makes the article sound very biased.

Finally, "Otherwise Christianity would not have survived." -- What does this mean? How does Christmas' relation to pagan traditions have anything to do with the survival of Christianity? Bad logic, bad style.

I an not registered, so I cannot delete these sentences (it is protected from vandalism). For now could someone change it so something like this:

"As Christianity evolved in Europe over the years, various pagan traditions, especially the winter festivals, came to be celebrated as Christmas. These festivities include song and dance, pageants, and the giving of gifts. Nowadays, Christmas is celebrated as a festival in it's own right with several traditions, especially music, made specifically for the celebration of the holiday."

The beginning of this article is terrible- it's fine to discuss absorption of paganism by Christianity, but it really seems like whoever edited that part last was trying to make a point, as if they were offended by something. 24.21.165.109 (talk) 09:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Secularity

I think the Christmas controversy section, and perhaps this article needs to be rewritten somewhat because it focuses too much on the so-called modern secularization of christmas, yet misses on this important point:

Didn't christmas somewhat originate from the purley secular winter festival celebrations, especially Yule?.Like the article on Yule says,"Christmas, which is essentially the symbology and traditions of Yule with the Christian story of the birth of Jesus of Nazareth superimposed upon it".

And doesn't this article document how historically christians and non-christians have debated why and if the celebration of the nativity of jesus is important, or even nessesary?, yet somehow its now the most important and celebrated time of the year.

On top of that, wasn't the date of december 25th partially chosen historically to coincide with the idea of winter soltice celebrations?, as there is no biblical reference to dec 25 as a birth date for jesus.

What I'm getting at is instead of people complaining that the whole religious aspect behind christmas has been faded, maybe it should be considered that it was never really there in the first place, that maybe christmas was historically created as a reason for christians and others to gather and celebrate during the end of year/winter soltice.Maybe the Nativity of Jesus was a good excuse for such.

Logically speaking, isn't that a fair assumption?. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rodrigue (talk • contribs) 23:36, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

More than fair, actually. Pretty much all the historical scholarship on the holiday (and I’ve read a lot) has found its genesis rooted in ancient (pre-Christian) European and Near-Eastern agrarian society seasonal calendars. By about this time each year, the harvest work was done, the meats were slaughtered, (about the only time fresh meat was available in any quantity to communities) and the darkness and cold began to push folks indoors. Feasting and recreation followed naturally. (It was “Miller Time!” if you will.) Being annual, these celebrations began to have local traditions and become ritualized (and sometimes spiritualized) in the different communities in the years B.C.E.
The spread of Christianity across Europe eventually left its mark as other religions had before it, changing some practices, banning some, and redefining & re-labeling others to fit with the new ideology. Among the new names that stuck was “Christmas.”
I think your main point – that one definition of Christmas is a secular and civil celebration predating Christianity, only tenuously connected with it since the advent of the faith, and now even outlasting it in some communities and societies – is totally valid and an important critique of this entry which tends too much (in my view) to define Christmas in the privileged sense it has among Christians.
As to your other specific points:
1. As I understand it, the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches and most Protestant sects have long believed that Easter, which celebrates the resurrection of Jesus, is the most important holiday of the faith.
2. The Bible gives no date as to Jesus’ birth. I have read that controversy over the date began early in the life of the faith, with many of the suggestions inspired by symbolism rather than historical analysis. (Most recent Biblical scholarship is doubtful of the December date and leans towards an early spring birth.) I believe disapproval of the very idea of fixing a date to Jesus birth and celebrating it was also widespread in early Christianity.
3. It has been suggested that the current date used by most of Christianity (set officially in the early fifth century if memory serves), was chosen specifically to co-opt existing celebrations both secular and from competing religions. This was certainly a documented strategy of the Church in other instances, but the suggestion about Christmas is still quite controversial among laymen, and I cannot say where the scholarly consensus (if there be one) is on it. TheCormac (talk) 01:06, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
The Christian date was set long before the fifth century - 2nd century I think. The Nativity article covers it I think. The first mention of Dec 25 celebrated as a holiday/feast day (a different thing) is in the Chronography of 354. Johnbod (talk) 14:38, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
By “official” I was referring to the setting of it as a calendar feast day in the Roman Church by Julius I round about 350, and the Eastern Churches mostly following suit from c380 through 432. So really the 4th and early 5th century. While the date of December 25th was promoted as early as 221 (or so), it had rival theories and only came into acceptance over time. (But I am quick to add that I am doing this from memory, so I could well be off on various dates.) Thanks for catching and clarifying! TheCormac (talk) 20:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

And a little of topic, but doesn't this somewhat apply to Easter as well?, and its now semmingly secular traditions.From what I understand, the idea of egg-painting and decorating, and the fact that bunnies and hares are associated with easter, is due to the fact that eggs, laid by birds, and bunnies, which highly reproduce, are symbols of fertility, which coincides with the fact that easter is tied to the beggining of spring when new animals and plants are born and come out of hibernation, symbolizing another time of celebration.

So it seems both Christmas and Easter are historicaly tied with purely seasonal, secular celebrations, and are now celebrated mainly as such.How much does the history of christmas relate with easter, in how they truly originated?. Rodrigue (talk) 17:38, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

The history of the holiday is important, yes, and there is a lot of secularism in the holiday. However, the way it is actually practiced is also important. Many, many millions of people see it as significant in a Christian way. To say that Easter and Christmas are now celebrated mainly as secular holidays is way too broad a generalization. Wrad (talk) 19:21, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, not just in terms of history, but just for why they are even significant.You say the religious aspect is still very important to many.But technically, I believe easter, representing the resurrection of christ, is the most, if not one of the most significant times of year for Christianity, as it is close/tied to the significance of the birth of christ.

But then why is Christmas seemingly so much more celebrated?, and why fewer even know the religious significance of easter.Because the secular origins of Christmas make it much more significant than easter.Even devout Christians regard Christmas as the most significant time of year, yet easter is not nearly as celebrated in terms of what it represents, even religiously. 67.71.60.47 (talk) 20:03, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Does anybody here have a source for the claims they're making? This really doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Making broad claims about why people do or don't celebrate Christmas is very dangerous. Not everybody celebrates it the same way. You can say "some do this and some do this," but to say that "Christians see Easter as more significant," or "modern culture sees Christmas as highly secular" is to repeat broad, inaccurate statements that have no place here. Be more specific! Wrad (talk) 20:14, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm generally in sync with your devotion to references, Wrad, but I think you are being more than a little pedantic in this case. This is the discussion page. If we all had all the citations at our finger tips, we'd be editing the article, not chatting here. And you want a source for Easter being the most important celebration in Christianity? (What are you, a Tibetan recluse?) Next you'll want a source for statements that America is a democracy. There is a difference between rigor and trying to smother conversation.
Someday I'll have the time to go back and look up the passages and pages numbers from years of reading on the topic of Christmas. Until then, I'll share what I think I know (politely) here in the discussion and those who agree or don't and have the interest and leisure will debate and dig into those comments themselves. If you ask me, that kind of stranger collaboration is one of the chief virtues of Wiki. (By the way, do you have a source for your "broad statement" that the statements you note are "inaccurate?") TheCormac (talk) 20:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, heres what I basically said: Do you really think jesus's birth is that much more significant than his resurrection, as to justify why Christmas is so much more highly regarded among christians, and others than easter?.

Or perhaps, like I said, the secular element of Christmas is what makes it so much more important, regardless of how devoutly you celebrate it. Rodrigue (talk) 20:52, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it's just because at Christmas you get presents :) Wrad (talk) 21:11, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

So isn't Christmas %100 just Yule?, just with the artificially added Nativity of Jesus story being either a central, or non-existing part of celebrations, depending on who you are.

The why is there even a Christmas controversy section.the whole point is christmas didn't come from religious origins, so why complain about its secularization. Rodrigue (talk) 21:07, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not a devout Christian, but I totally support the view that an article about Christmas should be about the religious festival celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ.

Just because two events occur on the same day does not mean that a festival on that day is celebrating both of them. The celebrant chooses what they are celebrating. So just because Saturnalia or Sol Invictus or whatever happens to fall on 25 December does not mean that any festivities on that day are celebrating either one of them. Either this page is about Christmas, or it is about Festivals on 25 December, but it should not, IMHO, try to be about both of them. 86.146.121.86 (talk) 08:05, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

I'd like to take this opportunity to wish everyone a Merry Christmas...and so I will: Merry Christmas to all! Gratia Domini nostri Iesu Christi vobiscum, amen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.186.251.55 (talk) 21:55, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Happy festival and a joyful new year of the Common era!---Steven Evens (talk) 22:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Don't know if his irrelevant section will even last, but yeah, don't see the point of saying such a politically incorrect statement in an academic encyclopedia anyways. Rodrigue (talk) 23:40, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

The point of wishing you a Merry Christmas is self-explanatory. It might not be 'political' --- but it is correct. And anyways...there is always so much vitriol on Wiki that a little friendliness couldn't hurt, now could it? --137.186.251.55 (talk) 19:39, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, it could not. A very Merry Christmas to all! TheCormac (talk) 03:20, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I see no problem with being friendly. Merry Christmas all. Phoenix1177 (talk) 05:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

WOW. What a Grinch! "Don't see the point of saying such a politically incorrect statement in an academic encyclopedia"... Good God, where is the world going to when we have to put someone down just for saying 'Merry Christmas'? Would you say the same for someone who said "Happy Hanukkah"? "Happy Birthday"? "Happy Anniversary"? Merry Christmas to all... or if you don't celebrate it, just enjoy your day! 206.248.156.132 (talk) 12:36, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Xmas was invented in 300 AD

It was previously unknown, there is nothing about Christmas in the Bible.
When the Roman Emperor decreed Christianity the official Imperial religion ca. 300, he re-branded the traditional Roman solstice party.
Santa Claus and Rudolph the Brown-nosed reindeer were invented much later.
Ho ho ho!!! Fourtildas (talk) 08:22, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The End of the Game

I would just like to mention that the picture description about the Slovenian Santa is wrong:

The name Ded Moroz is Russian, it's just not written in the Russian alphabet. In Slovenia it is Dedek Mraz.

And translation will be Grandfather of Frost, not father. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kpykc (talk • contribs) 20:12, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Secondly he isn't Slovene, well not just Slovene. He is the communist replacement of the Christian Sveti Miklavž or historicaly St. Nicholas of Myra and the Capitalist Santa Clause, so many of the former communist countries make up their own stories about him.

Dedek Mraz comes on the night of 31 December so be good :)

Lenko 89.212.183.159 (talk) 14:21, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Nativity Scenes

St. Francis was the first to put together a live nativity scene. He did this as a teaching tool. It caught on and has been popularized since then.

Santa

(This is my first time commenting so I am sorry if it's wrong)

I thought I should just say that almost everyone in Germany celebrates the kristkind or Christkind and not just in the South. I could try to edit it myself although it is protected or whatever, but I thought I should just point it out to any administrators if any of them should read this.

84.68.13.231 (talk) 16:59, 24 December 2007 (UTC)Mike 24/12/07

A Helpful External Link

I would like to suggest this external link to the above discussion:

I found it helpful, and not offensive at all. Merry Christmas!AMC0712 (talk) 17:19, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the Catholic Encyclopedia is a very helpful resource. But this brings up a problem which particularly touches on this Wiki article. For obvious reasons, Wiki posters have a bias towards resources easily accessible on line. But the vast majority of historical research is still available only in book form (and likely to be for many years, if you ask me). Your flagging of the Catholic Encyclopedia, which must be one the most hevily referenced resources in Wiki, makes the point. It IS a great resource, but one of limited scope and focus. A number of historians, anthropoligists, and related scholars have done a great deal of work to unearth information about Christmas through the centuries wholly beyond the narrow scope of the CE. Since the Wiki Christmas entry consists almost entirely of references found on-line, we lose much of the mass of human knowledge assembled about the cultural importance of Christmas and the changes wrought by evolving religious, economic, and political relationships, all of which can only be found in the books. Instead we get all kinds of detail about early church debates on the date of Christ's birth and isolated revisionist essays arguing against any borrowings from the Saturnalia. Why? Because that information is easily available and the main body of research is not. TheCormac (talk) 04:35, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, TheCormac, in the spirit of wikipedia, you should be bold and change that! If you have access to better resources/information, then add them in!MightyAtom (talk) 07:38, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

"Constantinian Origins" section a mess

The "Constantinian Origins" section (section 2.2.1 as of this writing) is a mess. Poor grammar, punctuation, and capitalization; redundant information (multiple editors?); etc., to the point that the section is barely readable. I don't want to touch it because I don't have the requisite information, but it needs attention from someone who does have the information and is capable of writing a coherent English sentence. JBJD (talk) 22:05, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

It's also entirely factually wrong -- Christmas was not celebrated on this date at that time. Roger Pearse 16:41, 31 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roger Pearse (talk • contribs)

Infobox picture

Am I alone in this or does anyone else think the infobox picture is too busy? The individual elements are too small to even tell what is going on. Also, the licensing is problematic - several of the constituent images are GFDL and one is CC - they aren't mixable. I really think a single picture of a Christmas tree, a crop of Image:Happy new year 06463.jpg, or a manger scene would look nicer. --B (talk) 03:14, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, and there you have hit on the problem! That picture was a compromise. There used to be a single picture of a Christmas Tree, but some folks didn't like that fact that the main picture wasn't religious, and others didn't want a Jesus picture as the main picture, and.....we have the busy compromise.MightyAtom (talk) 07:40, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
This one is hideously bad, though, and has the side effect of being a copyright violation that will be deleted from Commons as soon as anyone gets around to nominating it. Maybe a work of art could be used - perhaps Image:Worship of the shepherds by bronzino.jpg? It would satisfy the desire to have a religious image and would have more encyclopedic value than a random conglomeration of unidentifiable images. --B (talk) 03:03, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Minor mistake

There is a minor mistake using the wrong version of sun as in sun god i wanted to edited but couldn't. Geeko8800gtx (talk) 07:16, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Current Event tag

I dont really think that this is necessary as it impolies that the information will be changing because of the passing of christmas which it isnt, not much use otherwise. 81.129.23.206 (talk) 11:13, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

christmas is??

I don't know if this is a real encyclopedia or a christian website... since when is christmas a celebration of the birth of jesus? since 2000 years ago, what about before that? when the egyptions were celebrating the birth of : HORUS ( egypt Dec 25th, 3000 BC ) .. Attis ( greece Dec 25th, 1200 BC ) .. Mithra ( Persia Dec 25th, 1200 BC ) .. Krishna ( india Dec 25th, 900 BC ) .. Dionysus ( greece Dec 25th, 500 BC ) ..

Would you please document any evidence of any of these assertions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.88.233.70 (talk) 19:57, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I can go on, but I think my point is clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dee hax (talk • contribs) 13:32, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Please, please go away.–Steven Evens (talk) 19:20, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Please be polite, Steve. the opening sentence is very biased if it only says Christmas celebrates Christ's birth. It's also a winter celebration. Everybody knows that, even me, and I'm a Christian. Wrad (talk) 19:31, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Stop reverting valid information, Steve. All you have to do is read the article and you will see that Christmas has just as much to do with Winter Solstice as it does with Christ. Anyone who's read even a tiny bit into the subject knows that. Wrad (talk) 19:36, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
From my understanding, Christmas itself is a celebration of Christ's birth, but it is adopted from other holidays and celebrations. Cultures that celebrated the winter solstice were not celebrating Christmas- they were celebrating the winter solstice. Similarly, we don't introduce Easter as a celebration of the spring equinox.-Wafulz (talk) 19:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, Wafulz. Previous pagan holiday aspects have definitely been greatly incorporated into Christmas, but this does not change the definition of the holiday, Christmas. If we were to write an article on Saturnalia, or Yule, or Natalis Sol Invictus, things would be different. Irregardless of the varying personal celebrations of Christmas, the definition remains unchanged.—Steven Evens (talk) 19:45, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

"Christmas is an annual holiday that celebrates the birth of Jesus." is a biased first sentence. The rest of the article makes it very clear that this holiday is also heavily connected with celebrating the winter solstice. I propose a different first sentence: "Christmas is an annual holiday that celebrates the coming of winter and the birth of Jesus." This is a pretty balanced sentence to my mind. Wrad (talk) 19:43, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Christmas does not celebrate the coming of the winter solstice. If you believe this, that's your belief. We need reliable sources if we're going to put it here.—Steven Evens (talk) 19:46, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to have to agree with Steve. As defined in reliable sources, Christmas is Jesus' birthday. Unless there are Church documents stating that the purpose of Christmas was to celebrate the coming of winter, then there's not much of a case.-Wafulz (talk) 19:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

There are of course several winter festivals which Christmas took over, but there is no one I'm pretty sure who is celebrating Christmas as the beginning of winter, and if they are simply celebrating winter they are not celebrating Christmas. To celebrate Christmas is to by definition celebrate Jesus' birth. If you're celebrating the solstice you're celebrating something else. Romans who celebrated the Saturnalia at the same time Christians were celebrating Christmas were certainly not celebrating Christmas, even if they had a celebration on the same day. Roy Brumback (talk) 19:47, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention, that if Christmas celebrated "the coming of the winter solstice", as per Wrad, it would need to fall before December 20, as the winter solstice occurs between Dec. 20–23.—Steven Evens (talk) 19:51, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Now that I look at it, I can see that it's all right the way it is. Wrad (talk) 19:53, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it's important that in the "Christian Origins" section someone should add this sentence/phrase: "Many unlearned and ignorant people today think that December 25th is the day of Jesus' birth" even though the church itself has denied this claim".Reinoe (talk) 22:24, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Wafulz, there is no reliable source saying December 25th is Jesus's birthday. In fact, everyone knows it isn't. It's unclear as to the exact day, but every expert on the subject has said that 12/25 is almost certainly not. The origin of the date was in old celebrations of the winter solstice. The fact that today we know the solstice is not 12/25 is irrelevant. Enigmaman (talk) 22:29, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
There are definitely reliable sources that Christmas is a holiday celebrating the nativity of Jesus, which was the issue here. We know Jesus was not born on December 25, but we also know that Christmas was a holiday created by the Catholic church as the celebration of the birth of Jesus, irregardless of varying personal interpretations and celebrations, or issues of pagan syncretization.—Steven Evens (talk) 00:02, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

People in the southern hemisphere celebrating Christmas today are obviously not celebrating anything to do with winter, nor are they celebrating the summer solstice. Roy Brumback (talk) 23:43, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Eastern Churches (Orthodox and Catholic) and the Julian Calendar [Was: Greek Orthodox world]

The article currently states, "[I]n the Greek Orthodox world [Christmas] is in early January." The Website of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (which uses the "new" calendar) indicates that the nativity of Jesus Christ is observed on December 25. Yes, I realize that is just one archdiocese but I doubt that it's unique. --anon70.23.139.160 (talk) 01:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Then revert it and provide your reference. Be bold.—Steven Evens (talk) 01:13, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Changed Greek to Russian because here in Russia we still celebrate the Christmas on January, 7 while Greek Orthodox church does it on December, 25 now (http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Julian_Calendar#From_Julian_to_Gregorian). Illarionov (talk) 04:30, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
There are other Eastern Orthodox churches (some of them Greek Orthodox) that use the Julian calendar as well. This part should be rewritten to reflect this, possibly with the inclusion of a link to the appropriate Wikipedia article. (I don't have the time to do this.) --anon70.23.146.237 (talk) 18:47, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

NOT ONLY are there "other Eastern Orthodox churches...," the vast MAJORITY of Eastern Orthodox Churches do NOT recognize the Gregorian or so-called 'revised' Julian, and they still celebrate the Julian 25 December which is 07 January on the Gregorian; The Russian Orthodox Churches and faithful alone outnumber all other Orthodox churches that follow the Gregorian/Revised calendar. Therefore, the "some" and "other" erroneous quantifies should be changed to "majority of Eastern Orthodox churches."[1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.166.140.107 (talk) 20:44, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

The article to which you provide a link also says that some Eastern Catholic Christians use the Julian calendar. Anyway, the second and third paragraphs of the article now are redundant in part. (I am changing the heading of this section of the discussion page to make it broader. I also would like to belatedly wish a Merry Christmas to 216.166.140.107.) --anon70.23.158.110 (talk) 01:46, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Error in Christmas controversy section

I just wanted to point out a minor error:

On December 19, 2000, the decision of Ganulin v. United States was upheld by the 'Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals', not the 'U.S. Supreme Court'. On April 16, 2001, the U.S. Supreme Court denied the case certiorari, but this only means that the body chose not to try the case, not that it affirmed the Six District Court’s ruling.

Could anyone fix this error? Thank you!

I added that in. Thanks for the correction. Enigmaman (talk) 19:32, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

First line

Suggestion: "Christmas is an annual holiday that ostensibly celebrates the birth of Jesus" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.247.120.178 (talk) 07:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, and how about "St. Patrick's Day is a holiday that ostensibly celebrates Saint Patrick", and the same for Valentine's Day, Martin Luther King Day, etc... Or not.—Steven Evens (talk) 20:23, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Although I do not agree that this should be included wih the article, there is no need to be rude. RC-0722 (talk) 21:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Well these types of suggestions are ridiculous and ignorant, sorry if I can't help to appear rude. We celebrate getting drunk and wearing green on St. Patrick's Day a lot more than we "celebrate" the life of St. Patrick, but that doesn't change the definition of the holiday.—Steven Evens (talk) 22:05, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I've changed the first line to: "Christmas is a Christian holiday and popular secular festival celebrated on December 25.", but it gets reverted. Are we denying the secular part or does this cause offense in some other way? Stronimo (talk) 22:08, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

These changes are not supported. Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus as per the intention of the Catholic church at its creation. It is still widely celebrated as this, and there are no reliable sources to say that it is equally a secular festival celebrated on December 25, just that it has secular properties.—Steven Evens (talk) 22:13, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
You won't accept that it's also a secular festival? OK, I can try and work with "properties". Would you accept "secular elements"? I think that would flow better.Stronimo (talk) 22:32, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
What we know is that it is a holiday celebrating the birth of Jesus, whereas some celebratory properties are secular in nature, as with many other holidays with religious connotations. Many of the secular properties have been borrowed, or syncretized, from former pagan festivals, but this does not in any way make Christmas a "secular festival". The syncretization of these pagan festivals is already mentioned in the lead paragraphs. What are you proposing?—Steven Evens (talk) 22:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Christmas is self-evidently a more widespread phenomenon than the birth of Christ. That's such an important element what Christmas is *today* (not when it was founded) that needs to be said in the first line. It should also include the date. The first line as it currently stands is not NPOV.Stronimo (talk) 23:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
This line was reached as consensus over a long period of discussion in 2006. It was deemed the most NPOV option. As for the date—if you'd bother to read a further 2 sentences down the article you'd see how the varying dates of Christmas are explained. Christmas is and always has been defined as the celebration of the birth of Jesus, regardless of its Christian, pagan, or secular properties. Christmas cannot be "the celebration" of its own secular properties. It's the celebration of Jesus' birth. The secular properties are definitely important and prominent, but deserve no mention in the first sentence. First paragraph, sure, but the first sentence was reached as a consensus and you'd need to reach a new community consensus to have it changed, as per Wikipedia policy.—Steven Evens (talk) 23:53, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a forum for you to evangelize. The article failed a GA review in Dec 2007 because it isn't sufficiently NPOV, over-emphasizing the religious. It's time to seek a new consensus.Stronimo (talk) 01:04, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me? I'm not a Christian, I'm an agnostic. Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus as per its accepted definition. Mention of the secular aspects is warranted for the first paragraph, but not sentence. Unless you can have others agree with you, it should remain unchanged as per previous consensus. I agree with a change to the intro as it is somewhat flawed, but not in the way you edited it. Christmas is not a "secular festival" as per documented sources, though people who may only celebrate its secular aspects may call it this. Please provide us with your sources.—Steven Evens (talk) 01:34, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
If large amounts of people are only celebrating the secular aspects would that not make it "more of a secular holiday?", just reflecting on North America and the large number of non christians and non practicing that celebrate christmas, I would think they are definately celebrating it secularly 99.247.120.178 (talk) 03:59, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
The Vatican released this on Dec 19 2007: "The Pope acknowledged that many people make the effort to separate the Christmas celebration from the message of the Incarnation". The Pope acknowledges it, and so should this article. The Pope, of course sees it as a problem, we merely need to document it.81.86.170.157 (talk) 05:36, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I should point out I haven't read all the (I assume volumes) of talk about the first line before. I made my suggestion after coming to the article, reading it (especially the first line/paragraph) and not seeing a reflection of how I understand Christmas celebrated my urban North American slice of the world. Perhaps it is a worldview problem. Hard to reflect all. 99.247.120.178 (talk) 05:47, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

    • Been ignored, but I still think the lead/first line needs work 07:12, 29 December 2007 (UTC)07:12, 29 December 2007 (UTC)07:12, 29 December 2007 (UTC)~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.247.120.178 (talk)
I agree. I've tried various edits, but every contribution has been reverted.Stronimo (talk) 10:48, 29 December 2007 (UTC)