Talk:Christian views on contraception

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Christianity
Christianity Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page to become familiar with the guidelines.
B This article has been rated as B-class on the quality scale.
Low This article has been rated as low-importance on the importance scale.
Assessment comments
Peer review Christian views on contraception has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.
To-do list for Christian views on contraception: edit · history · watch · refresh

Here are some tasks you can do:

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Christian views on contraception article.
Article policies

Contents

[edit] Pop culture additions

Alienus,

  • 1. If you're not an administrator, then you don't have any right threating to ban anyone.
  • 2. Cultural references exist on many Wikipedia articles. There is no reason why it shouldn't be on this page.

Captain Jackson 00:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I've never seen this much reverting of my work before. This article is pretty short for one which so many people seem to care so much about. Captain Jackson 07:51, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
The pop culture info does seem very out of place for this article. CyberAnth 02:06, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unreferenced portions

Much of the information is referenced within the text, e.g. "Pope Pius XI's 1930 encyclical entitled Casti Connubii" or "In 1968 Pope Paul VI released an encyclical titled Humanae Vitae". There are also three direct references. They are html tags rather than formally typed out, but that's an editing issue, not a reference issue. I guess I could understand using the 'fact' tag for specific claims, but I'm puzzled at calling the entire article unreferenced.Lyrl 22:36, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

There are numerous other statements made in the Catholic sections that are not cited. Can anyone more knowledgable than myself on Catholic views provide them? I'd like to get this article fully up to Wikipedia standards and then submit it for peer review. CyberAnth 04:49, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protestant section

This section could really use some expansion, since Protestantism and its views are so diverse. CyberAnth 02:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I expanded it and removed the Please Expand request. Thoughts? - CyberAnth 19:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Orgasms and oral sex

There has been some past controversy on these points on this article in the past. I removed the reference because they are simply not the subject of this piece. Catholic opposition to them might be a good addition to articles on those subjects, however, if they are not already. I think that is where the info belongs, not here. CyberAnth 02:14, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Withdrawal is a form of contraception. Also considered birth control by some are mutual masturbation, oral sex, and anal sex. All of these acts are condemned by the Catholic Church, and the bit on orgasms explains why. I think that is relevant to this article, because some couples engage in these acts to avoid getting pregnant. Lyrl Talk Contribs 13:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Okay. Your reasoning seems sound. Can you perhaps come up with a reference from an official Catholic Church document stating this? I know the Vatican website is utterly replete with official church docs. CyberAnth 03:01, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
The Catechism doesn't come right out and say "no oral or anal sex", but it repeatedly states that all sexual acts must be both unitive and possibly procreative. The procreative bit rules out non-intercourse sex acts. (See Catechism of the Catholic Church 2351, 2352, 2363, 2366, 2369, 2370) Would that make a good reference?
I also have a book (The Art of Natural Family Planning) published by the Couple to Couple League (a Catholic organization) that explicitly condemns orgasm outside of intercourse. But being a book rather than an online resource, it's more difficult for other editors to verify, so I'm not sure I should use as the reference in this case. Lyrl Talk Contribs 22:42, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
If the Catechism doesn't come right out and say "no oral or anal sex", but only repeatedly states that all sexual acts must be both unitive and possibly procreative, thus ruling out non-intercourse sex acts, then that is germane but should be stated here without interpretation of the Catechism to make it explicitly say "no oral or anal sex". And the Catechism is certainly a legit ref. CyberAnth 09:30, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Catholic philosophy

The version of this article http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christian_views_on_contraception&oldid=47313646 that contains info from Catholic philosophy is very good and fitting. Why was it removed? CyberAnth 02:55, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel words

I realize this article contains several instances of weasel words, which I am currently working to remove. Please feel free to step in to do it before I do. CyberAnth 05:51, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Time to make two articles?

Per the Wikipedia article size guidlines, it appears time time to make two articles of this one while making this one somewhat more brief. I plan to do this shortly. Anyone else may feel free to beat me to the task. :-) CyberAnth 08:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

This article has not reached that point yet. There isn't even a size warning on the edit page (look at an article like Jesus. When you hit the edit tab, you will see a size warning at the top). I also think, if the article does get to that point, that we should work on one spin-out article at a time, using the largest section as the one to simplify here and expand in the spin-out (instead of creating 2 or more new articles at once). Just some thoughts.--Andrew c 22:47, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nicene Creed Christians

I introduced this as a delimter to this article to define "Christian" per Nicene creed#Controversy_of_Christian_definition. It was removed. I think it should be placed back in. Moreover, the rest of the article focuses only on views of Nicene Creed adherents so to place the delimiter in is to be accurate. CyberAnth

It adds nothing to the article, except confusion stemming from a theological controversy that doesn't need to be addressed here. The title of the article is "Christian views on contraception" not "Nicene Christian views on contraception" or "Trinitarian Christian views on contraception". I understand the article current does not discuss and Restorationist sects, but is there a reason why we should exclude in the future views of Mormons of Jehovah's Witnesses? Would we need to create another article on top of this one just to include them, if we decide at some point that their views on contraception are relevent? Seriously, I see no reason to make the distinction. There is no need to clarify the word "Christian" in this instance, and not only does it unnecessarily exclude sects, it introduces a theologically dense conflict that is off topic to this article. I would like to know why the current and long standing version of this article is somehow inaccurate? Is there precedent for this destinction on wikipedia (look through the "Christian views" articles here). Anyway, hope this explains my reasoning for removing it.--Andrew c 21:46, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
The reasons is because it is a very contentious issue to call sects who reject the Nicene Creed "Christian" and to not make the distinction is misleading and transference technique. To not stipulate between Nicene creed adherents and non-Nicene creed adherents is to actually introduce confusion. Self-referencing as "Christian" is far to minimalist of a definition. One might as well confuse Mormon and JW articles by introducing Catholic and Protestant views under a Mormon or JW label. No ecumenical movement of Christians (e.g., the World Council of Churches) in the world accepts non-Nicene Christians as Christians indeed so to include them in an ecyclopedia as such is on shaky ground. If at some point non-Nicene crede adherents who go by "Christian" wish to be included here, it would be completely misleading, confusing, and again transference technique, to not give them a seperate section called something like "Non-Nicene Crede Adherents". Placing the delimiter is an attempt, and I would argue required, to avoid a complex and heated argument! Here is a VERY long and still ongoing one Talk:The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints#.22Consider_themselves....22 in case you'd like an example. CyberAnth 23:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
You are completely correct that it is controversial to call Mormons and JW's Christians. However, I believe you are wrong that it is necessary to avoid confusion to clarify the groups that are NOT controversial when called Christian. I agree, if we ever add LDS, or Adventists, or JWs, we should note that they are not nicene. However, Protestants and Catholics and Anabaptists are all, uncontroversially "Christian", and therefore it is not important to bring up this debate here.--Andrew c 23:55, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Given that, I am satisfied with leaving the delimiter out for now and placing it back in at a point whenever/if ever non-Nicene Crede views are incorporated. Peace. CyberAnth 00:06, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Agreed! Glad we could clear that up. And just because I've been thinking more about this. "Nicene Christianity" and Christianity are basically synonymous, so it would be giving undue weight to a minority view (non-Nicene Christianity) to qualify the mainstream with theologically dense language everytime the word is used.--Andrew c 00:12, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Addition to individual conscience group?

I believe there are some couples who follow the Quiverfull belief system for themselves, but do not believe all couples are morally bound to do so. I think (though honestly am not familiar enough to say for sure) that the Duggar family is one example of this. Although this viewpoint is expressed implicitly in the "individual conscience" section, that section focuses mainly on use of birth control. I think it would be nice to mention that some couples follow their conscience to not use birth control, without making any judgements on other couples who do. If that makes sense.

I'm not sure how to integrate that into the current section, though, which is why I'm putting it on the talk page instead of just making an edit. Lyrl Talk Contribs 13:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Good point. What do you think of this change:
FROM:
Some Protestants, however, reject the position that contraceptive use is a matter of conscience. Quiverfull adherents may particularly argue that the Bible commands their position for all Christians. For example, Charles D. Provan argues,
TO:
Some Protestants, however, reject the position that contraceptive use is a matter of conscience. 'Although some Quiverfull adherents accept that birth control use is a matter of individual consconscience, other such adherents may argue that the Bible commands their position for all Christians. For example, Charles D. Provan argues,
I like it. Thank you. Lyrl Talk Contribs 22:43, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay, good. I appreciate your input to my additions. CyberAnth 06:26, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How to improve this article?

I'd like to get this article really tight and submit it for good article review and status. Here are some things I am thinking should happen before that.

  1. All assertions missing references need them
  2. The sub-section Christian_views_on_contraception#Background needs to be expanded
  3. The Catholic views section - what about a section on the philosophical debates on this subject? There used to be one in this article but it was removed and completely unreferenced
  4. Additional editor input/feedback on all sections. Is anything important being left out? Emphasized wrongly, too strongly, or not enough? Etc.
  5. Links section needs some work
  6. The Intro needs some expansion and improvement so it gives a better overview of the whole article
  7. Others?

Thoughts?

CyberAnth 06:38, 22 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Interesting Papal quote

John Paul II, 17 July 1994:

“ The Church's teaching about "responsible parenthood" is based on this essential anthropological and ethical foundation. Unfortunately, Catholic thought is often misunderstood on this point, as if the Church supported an ideology of fertility at all costs, urging married couples to procreate indiscriminately and without thought for the future. But one need only study the pronouncements of the Magisterium to know that this is not so.

Truly, in begetting life the spouses fulfills one of the highest dimensions of their calling: they are God's co-workers. Precisely for this reason they must have an extremely responsible attitude. In deciding whether or not to have a child, they must not be motivated by selfishness or carelessness, but by a prudent, conscious generosity that weighs the possibilities and circumstances, and especially gives priority to the welfare of the unborn child.

Therefore, when there is a reason not to procreate, this choice is permissible and may be even be necessary. However, there remains the duty of carrying it out with criteria and methods that respect the total truth of the marital act in its unitive and procreative dimension, as wisely regulated by nature itself in its biological rhythms. One can comply with them and use them to advantage, but they cannot be "violated" by artificial interference.

 ”

Sources are http://ccli.org/nfp/morality/churchteaching.php and http://www.freehomepages.com/nostradamus/conjugalove.htm

This might be good to work in.

CyberAnth 20:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Onan picture

The second picture is more tasteful, though I'm not sure either one of them adds much to the article. The subcaption is informative and relevant, I just am not connecting to the image itself. Lyrl Talk Contribs 12:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you have any better ideas for an image? CyberAnth 05:47, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Views within Reformed Protestantism

In the late 1990s there was an ongoing discussion of this issue in the smaller presbyterian denomination known as the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. An issue of the denominational magazine (New Horizons) was dedicated to discussion of whether birth control was permissible. For ongoing issues, letters to the editor were written back and forth between those opposing birth conrol and those condoning it as a decision made between husband and wife. Such sharp disagreements emerged over this issue (and over the celebration of Christmas) that soon the editorship of the magazine changed, and the magazine's emphasis changed from emphasizing the diversity in the denomination to emphasizing was unites the denomination. I'm sure you may be able to find some of those issues to add to the protestant views section.Gregory Y

Facinating! CyberAnth 18:44, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments on quote and image use

I have posted at the village pump to try and get some more discussion here. I find the use of quotes and images rather unorthodox. Do we really need internet promo-headshots of those being quoted? And do we really need so many quotes? Wikipedia should not be a collection of quotes (that's wikiquote), but instead concise encyclopedia articles summarizing our cited sources (quotes can help, but shouldn't be the meat of an article). These are my concerns, and hopefully some 3rd parties will arrive to agree or disagree with me.--Andrew c 15:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I plan to reduce the number of quotes through summarizing and paraphrasing but will not get to it until sometime after the New Year. CyberAnth 17:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Fullquiver.jpg

Image:Fullquiver.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 13:00, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Johnpiper.jpg

Image:Johnpiper.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 06:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Onan died long before Deuteronomy was written

Sin of Onan most see Onan's real sin as failure to fulfill the terms of his Levirate marriage (Yibbum), even though the Bible says failure to fulfill this term is humiliation not death, according to Deuteronomy 25:5-10.[51]

The statement here makes it seem as if Onan was commanded by God to be living by the Law of Moses. The Yibbum as established in the Law was generations later than Onan's time. It was Onan's father Judah that commanded Yibbum, not God. And was Onan's pretense and rape (sex by pretense) of Tamar who'd just suffered a triple pain (husband just died, he was childless and she's still childless). If failure to Yibbum was the crime Onan was killed for, then why wasn't Judah also killed for not allowing his 3rd son to preform it? And besides that, The Law added quite a few limits to punishments. Eye for an eye is a famous limitation (as in, only an eye for an eye and no more than an eye). The Hebrews, after the Law was given, lived under its rule and protection. After the Law was fulfilled, Christians were no longer under its rule but also not under its protection. Case and point, Ananias and Sapphira pretended to donate the proceeds of their land to the church but kept some back. They also were struck dead, and a twofer no less. Both parties pretended to do the right thing outwardly but tried to secretly reneg. Both parties premeditated their ruse. Both parties tried to get their pleasure without the responsibilities. Both parties were pioneers in their crimes (1st fake donation for their eras) and so had to be made an example of. Neither party was under the protection of the Law —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.109.248.53 (talk) 12:31, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Latter-day Saint beliefs

It should be noted that for over 120 years artificial birth control was against official LDS Church teachings, and remains against the teachings of most 'Mormon Fundamentalist' groups. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobeyjaggle (talk • contribs) 08:15, 4 May 2008 (UTC)