Talk:Christian Identity

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[edit] Tone of article

It's interesting to notice that this article is linked in the Christianity series, while Islamism and Muslim Brotherhood are not linked in the Islam series. Inquiring minds wonder why...

Afc 01:22, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

The article does seem somewhat slanted.24.168.228.127 14:14, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I have absolutely no interest in an edit war. Attempting to include information that may help clarify the origins of the Christian Identity Movement not instigate conflict. Religion, philosophy, science, and myth all play a role in this complex and fascinating subject. A narrow scope diminishes the potential impact of the article.24.168.228.127 16:56, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Irony in two seedline Christian Identity teaching

The two seedline branch of Christian Identity teaches that Jews are the descendants of Satan. The VERY ironic thing about this is that there is very extensive association between Satanism and Neo-Nazism. Gringo300 01:57, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Scizophenia

Its an lmost schizophrenic faith. They claim to hate Jews with every inch of their being, yet are so scared sh*tless to leave the Christian faith they were raised in (ironically derived from Judaism) that they have to invent some pseudo-historical babble based around a Jewish book!! Still not one piece of archaeological evidence has ever been produced to show that the ancient Israelites were in fact Indo-Europeans, and it will never be found either!!

Oh damn, I've just become part of the conspiracy!!

The following is a quote from the article's link to the FBI's Project Megiddo:

There are a number of white supremacy groups that do not necessarily adhere to Christian Identity or other religious doctrines. White supremacy groups such as the National Alliance, the American Nazi Party and the National Socialist White People’s Party are largely politically, rather than religiously, motivated.

As a result, I'm reworking the article's apparent reference to the American Nazi Party as an example of a Christian Identity. SCCarlson 04:30 Mar 12, 2003 (UTC)

Why does this article use the word "fundamentalist" to describe these groups? In what sense are they fundamendalist? Mkmcconn

Don't know. It appears to be in the initial revision of the article. SCCarlson

I addede that, because in the articles I read which discussed the topic, none of these groups accepted the validity of any form of modern tetxual study, lower biblical criticism, or higher biblical criticism in understanding the text. None of these groups, so far as I have read, attempt to use history to read the books of the Bible within their original historical context. However, I concede that this is only true for the specific groups and individuals I read about, and is not necessarilly true for all such groups. We can remove this term from the article. RK

This is certainly an extensive quote. Would it not make sense to link to the original article instead of excerpting so much from it? -- Zoe

This shouldn't be used as a quote! It was meant to be the article itself! Many of our articles here on Wikipedia come directly from U.S. Government webpages, which offer much public domain information (and images!). I think we alreadyhave several hundred Wikipedia articles that started out as such quotes, and then grew from there. RK

I believe that white supremacy is racist. As a result, it's not necessary to say explicitly that they are racist in the intro: one can simply say that they are white supremacists. This yields a concise intro that both white supremacists and normal people can accept as accurate. Martin 19:44, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

"White supremacy is racist." Yes, but racist isn't necessarily white supremacist. Someone hating someone else doesn't necessarily mean the person sees the other person as INFERIOR. A person can hate someone and believe they are equal to or even superior to themselves.

Plus, just because a person believes that one or more races are inferior to their own, that doesn't automatically mean they view ALL other races as inferior to their own. Gringo300 09:17, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Should "interracial couples" be linked in some fashion? --Daniel C. Boyer 18:44, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Yes, such a hyperlink could be appropriate. (It was hard to resist making some sort of pun...) RK 19:59, Oct 20, 2003 (UTC)

I have restorted the list and discussion of the many kinds of Christian Identity groups. They are, I would think by definition, on topic for this article. I also totally agree with Arline that some of this material also is useful in other Wikipedia articles. So we can copy and paste, word processor style, without deleting the text from this article. RK 23:17, Oct 22, 2003 (UTC)

Most of the text on particular groups should be refactored to separate articles - e.g. the section on Aryan Nations is much the same as that separate article already.

[edit] This article is historical and religiously distorted

This article must be rewritten. There was absolutely no connection between the Worldwide Church of God and the Christian Identity movement. The link in the article is both offensive and totally untrue. Whatever one may think about Herbert W. Armstrong one thing must be stated as fact: he saw himself as a friend of the Jews and a friend of the State of Israel. Students from his Ambassador College system participated in the various digs in conjunction with Hebrew University. Armstrong himself was very much at home in the company of Israeli leaders and Armstrong's right hand man since the 1950s was himself a Jew who claimed to convert to the beliefs of Herbert W. Armstrong. On the other hand the Christian Identity movement shuns both the Jews and Israel and embraces Germanic ideas. Armstrong on the other hand devoted his entire prophetic ministry to warning that a new German led Europe would destroy both the USA and UK. 64.63.216.225 04:41, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Needs more scholarly data and less FBI

Many scholars who have studied Christian Identity have a very low opinion of the FBI report on which much of this article is based, especially Kaplan. I have tried to correct some obvious factual errors, and remove some sweeping statements. Armstrong, incidently, promoted British Israelism for many years, so the statement above is not entirely accurate. Armstrong did not promote the neonazi version of Christian Identity however. Let's put more or Barkan and Kaplan into theis piece.--Cberlet 00:29, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] armed citizen(s)(') militias

OK, this is tricky. It depends on the source document. armed citizens militias armed citizen's militias armed citizen militias Any questions? Is there a style for this on Wikipedia?--Cberlet 02:55, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Armed citizens' militias Atheistrabbi 23:17, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Got Cite?

"Although they have never identified themselves as such, Westboro Baptist Church adheres to most, if not all, of the tenements of the movement. " This really needs an independent cite.--Cberlet 21:49, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hardcore?

The word hardcore might not be seen as very professional... perhaps restate? DoomBringer 07:16, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] British Israelism

Doesn't a large block of the text in the Ideoology section belong on the British Israelism page?--Cberlet 14:11, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Seedline Theories

The two seed line branch of Christian Identity seems to be the extreme manifestation, of the "struggle for birthright" idea. It goes something like: Jacob was able to purchase the birthright from Esau, and Esau resented it afterwards. Jacob became Israel (and fathered the nation), Esau became Edom (and fathered the nation). Similarly the nation of Edom resented the nation of Israel and did everything in their power to hinder and harm Israel, and hence verses like [Rom 9:13]. Accordingly, Edom is supposed to have done everything in its power to re-obtain the birthright from Israel. In Babylon both nations were taken captive, and Edom "became" mixed the House of Judah. They did not object to, or discourage being called "Jews". Judaean and Idumeans became one under a new banner.

Both themes appear in Christian Identity literature. Certainly, the struggle for birthright idea seems much less offensive. By itself, it seems to explain how Herod (an Edomite and non-Israelite) became king of the Jews.

Between the two themes however, the struggle for birthright appears much more prevalent and more accepted. The two seed line idea appears more extreme. The article does not convey this, and reads as though the focus sits primarily on the "fringe" theologies in Identity Christian belief rather than the popular ones. Certainly, the fringe theologies should, by no means, be avoided, but they should also be presented in proper context. For the sake of objectivity, perhaps a better approach might be to outline the most common (and least objectionable) Christian Identity ideas, and work towards the more extreme, making it clear that the extreme ideas are towards the fringe even in Christian Identity. (added sig: WikiRat)

You need to cite a published source that backs up these views--Cberlet 03:04, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Notice the tab? "Discussion!". I'm not an expert on Christian Identity sources (though I have looked at issues in Biblical history). Nor should I need to be to comment on the tone of the article. Anyone with an (objective) opinion can judge the tone of this article and recommend a more objective approach in this discussion page if one is needed. --WikiRat 05:45, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

What's with the attitude? I was merely asking for a cite. We are trying to improve an encyclopedia here. Constructive comments are even better if there is a cite to consult to see if text here needs to be edited.--Cberlet 12:11, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Barkun book

The Barkun quote I checked is from the 1994 edition. It may also be in the 1996/97 revised edition, but I don't have that book at home. Now for the trivia. If you ask UNC press, they will tell you the revised edition was published in late 1996. However most library catalogs list it as 1997. I have had editors castigate me for getting the dates wrong, but in fact, it is a confused issue. Sigh.--Cberlet 22:58, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Adamites and Israelites

Christian Identity claims that Adam and Eve were the first white people, and calls whites Adamites.

But how even by their logic could they be called Israelites?

Assume for a second that Jacob/Israel himself could be called an Israelite (the FIRST Israelite). He obviously wasn't even conceived until MANY generations after Adam and Eve, who they say were the first white people.

And certainly, there would have been many other descendants of Adam and Eve on the earth in the lifetime of Jacob/Israel, and THEY would have had descendants, too.

So how could whites and Israelites be synonymous even by their logic?

Gringo300 10:30, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't know, I don't even think they are Christian and I feel that the real Christian church should sue them for using that label.--69.234.187.148 (talk) 19:23, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] South African groups?

Doesn't this entire South African section belong in British Israelism It's a great addition, but CI is a form of British Israelism developed in the U.S. I suspect the same is true for the SA variant--Cberlet 13:40, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

No - the Boers are a separate people from English South Africans - and in fact a great deal of historical emnity exists between them. I'm sure there are English CIs in the country, but it certainly isn't as widespread as it is among some Afrikaner communities (without wishing to offend anyone). The church which is most associated with Christian Identity beliefs in SA is the Dutch Reformed Church, although I think many of their congregations have now renounced racism and Identity theology to fit in with the new South Africa. I don't know where it can go - I'm thinking of writing an article on it, but unfortunately, there is not much information about these groups on the internet, since many South Africans do not have internet access. I could ask some people I knew, but that would certainly be classed as original research. XYaAsehShalomX 19:55, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

This gives some good background, although it needs to be cleaned up - and if anyone's going to do a separate article, some more CI-specific stuff would have to be added. XYaAsehShalomX 19:59, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] This article should be moved

... to "Christian Identity Movement". Since Christian Identity encompasses a number of different people and doctrines, movement is a better article title.

There is no reason to do this. Most of the scholarly works simply call it "Christian Identity," and that it is a series of related groups is discussed in the text. It probably lacks the cohesion required to term it an actual "movement" in the title. While it is often called the Christian Identity Movement in scholarly titles, it is not common in titles.--Cberlet 00:42, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, that was not clear. Yes, scholars refer to the Christian Identity movement, or even "CIM", but in an encyclopedia titles need to be more careful and avoid jargon such as sociological jargon. So American Civil Rights Movement (1955-1968) is a propoer title, but Christian Identity is a movement but should not be promoted to a title, since it is a religion as well as a movement.--Cberlet 01:10, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] So they reject the deicide charge?

Well, if they believe that those Barbara Streisand-ish people from Russia are actually Khazars, not descended from the Gospel era Judahites, then they must reject deicide, since no Khazars were in Jerusalem.--22:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)~Enda80

Would need research into CI literature to determine. What's the point?--Cberlet 13:35, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christianity & Christian Identity

While it is true that every major Protestant denomination and the Roman Catholic Church consider CI to be a heresy, that does not mean it should not be cataloged in an encyclopedia as a form of Christianity. See indexes to: Encyclopedia of Millennialism and Millennial Movements, and Encyclopedia of Fundamentalism, on Amazon. I have both.--Cberlet 13:35, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not for you to decide what's Christian or not. I contend that there is not enough reliable source vefification via citations to known experts on the subject of Christianity which assert this so-called "movement" to be Christian. You need better verification on this point and you need citations. I am restoring my edits. → Wombdpsw - @ ← 15:19, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the references provided support the statement in the lead paragraph, "Most of them promote a Euro-centric version of Christianity." From there, it's useful to the reader to include the Christianity template. I don't think people are going to read this and think the skinheads are the true followers of Jesus, or that Christians in general are racists. I don't understand what statement in the article you regard as uncited.

We already say, "...most modern Christian denominations and organizations denounce Christian Identity theology as a heresy." It's possible that there could be some presentation of opinions saying that followers of Christian Identity are not Christians at all, if you have some good references to people saying that. Tom Harrison ^Talk 16:06, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding your comment of "I don't think people are going to read this and think the skinheads are the true followers of Jesus, or that Christians in general are racists." If that is true, why are you helping people get confused on this issue by reinserting a template that clearly does not belong here? Also, you are asking me to prove a negative - that people of this type are not generally recognized as Christians. You have the burden of proof wrong. It's you, by inserting the {{christianity}} template who is asserting that the subject people of this article are indeed generally recognized as Christians - but you offer no proof such recognition exists. And it doesn't matter that you put a weak disclaminer of "...most modern Christian denominations and organizations denounce Christian Identity theology as a heresy" in the article. Even that assertion must be cited to a reliable source for verfication. I am removing the template. It does not belong in this article. → Wombdpsw - @ ← 17:07, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Please read this ADL page on the subject of "Christian Indentity". The ADL's page is extremely accurate and a very reliable source. The ADL refers to CI as "Christian Identity is a religious ideology popular in extreme right-wing circles." At no point does the ADL refer to CI as a variant of Christianity. The editors who want to say that CI is a variant of Christianity must supply reliable source citations to experts on the subject who say that. If not, the wiki standards of WP:V and WP:RS are not being met, but instead we will have a WP:OR violation whicb is unacceptable. → Wombdpsw - @ ← 17:20, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The references are listed - stop being disruptive. Barkun, for example, discusses CI as a variant of Christianity. When you have read Barkun, come back with more concerns.--Cberlet 17:22, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not being disruptive and your assertion that I am is false. This article as currently comprised, if the {{christianity}} template is included, is a disgrace. By no recognized standard or expert opinion is CI a variant of Christianity. I have no more time to address this today, but I will return here with further comment soon. → Wombdpsw - @ ← 17:44, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Numerous scholars write about Christian Identity as a hateful variant of Christianity--but a variant of Christianity nonetheless. If you cannot abide by Wiki guidleines, perhaps it is best if you do not edit this page--Cberlet 02:59, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

NOTE - User:Wombdpsw has been identified as a notorious vandal using many usernames before, such as "Merecat" and "Rex071404". He's been blocked indefinitely. (see userpages or clerk's report) -- ActiveSelective 06:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

They are far removed from Christianity. In believing that Jesus was caucasian and not a Jew means that they worship "another Jesus". Their concept of "pre-Adamic" races conflicts directly with the bible as it is stated in Genesis 3:20 that Eve is "the mother of all the living. The bible also preaches love and rejects prejudice, exact oppisites of this so caled "Christian" movement.

[edit] "Opposition by Some neo-Nazis, Support by Others"

This section seems to confuse the subjects of "opposition" and/or "support" for the Christian Identity ideology in particular with whether or not some neo-Nazis emphasize any sort of "belief in God and Christian fundamentalism."

The generalization about the complicated issue of the history of relations between the Third Reich (and other fascist powers) with the Catholic Church would certainly need some citations, or at least links to other entries (the stub on Hitler_and_the_Church, for example), if it belonged here at all.

A link to the entry on the Protestant_Reich_Church would make sense, though.

I haven't changed anything because I'm too new to Wikipedia to be entirely sure of the rules (and even just trying to edit my comment here has been tricky), but I thought I'd log my concern here. Frippo 15:51, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "This Is Nonsense"

As a long-time Identity adherent, I can tell you that most of what is contained within this article is nonsense. We do believe there is going to be a Second Coming, we believe there likely will be a Race War, we deny the rapture (this is part of why we prepare for the race war). You state that we stockpile food and guns yet we don't believe in Armageddon, well why do you think we stockpile these things? Furthermore, those who do not believe in Pre-Adamite peoples are the MINORITY within Identity. Likewise those who are not dual-seedline are the MINORITY within Identity. Additionally, I know of no Identity followers who believe in the goodness of the children of Cain. HouseOfJacob 0:54, January 22nd, 2007 (EST)

I didn't see thse problems, the problem seems to be the opposite. This article does claim pre adamites and survival orient life styles are common aspects of CI.You very nice place 08:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Use of the word racialist

racialist is a real word, and means a belief that certain characteristics are determined by race. racist means a belief that race is the primary determinant of certain characteristics and is meant in a derogatory way. I would suggest changing the occurrence of the word racialist to racist in this article. I'll leave this comment here for a while and then move on it.

BananaFiend 16:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This should be removed from "WikiProject Fascism"

Someone with administrative capabilities should remove it from the Fascism Project. Say what you will about Christian Identity but it has few of the characteristics of fascism. If anything it is anti-fascistic. From the American Heritage Dictionary: "A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, ...". GuyInCT 11:11, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone here want to seriously dispute that scholars have suggested that

a significant number of Christian Identity adherents in the U.S. are neofascists or neonazis? See Barkun's book.--Cberlet 02:35, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

What is your point, Cberlet? A majority of Communists and Anarchists are also atheists. Does this mean that the Wikki articles on atheism should be linked to articles on those political views? GuyInCT is correct on this point, thus I removed the "wikiproject fascism" banner as inapropriate. 66.68.83.148 01:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Protestant?

Religious scholars generally point to four divisions within Christianity: Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, and Restorationist. Protestant churches are those which trace their belief systems specifically back to the Reformation, whether for theological reasons (Luther, Calvin, the Anabaptists) or political reasons (the Church of England), including those churches which began as breakaway groups from them (as Methodism is from Anglicanism and Holiness and Pentecostalism in turn from Methodism, for example). Restorationist churches believe the Protestant churches are just as "apostate" as the Catholic, reject the Protestant label, and assert they are "restoring" the true early church. Inasmuch as they reject almost all theological tenets of Protestant churches, consider them apostate, and have no notable line of succession to the Reformation (trying to establish a link to Anglicanism via British Israelism is a tenuous link at best), Christian Identity is a form of Restorationism, not Protestantism. It is properly grouped with other Restorationist groups like the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Campbellites/Church of Christ. "Protestant" is not synonymous with "not Catholic", and Identity's main distinguishing features are either completely unique to Identity (two-seed doctrine, salvation only available to white/Europeans, and so on), or shared with one or more other Restorationist churches but not with any Protestant churches: Saturday worship in some groups, British Israelism, asserting that Christians should keep Old Testament feasts but reject Christmas and Easter, doctrine on baptism identical to that of the Campbellites, etc. It is probably important to distinguish Identity from the recent emergence of some breakaway Catholic groups which hold some Identity-like doctrines but the "Protestant" label is not a factually accurate way to do this. 70.108.96.217 13:24, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I would agree. Specifically, CI's adherents reject historical Protestant teachings on soteriology (especially justification, usually considered the defining doctrine of historical Protestantism), Christology, ecclesiology and eschatology. The only links CI has to Protestantism is its use of the Bible (though often in altered translations) and certain ethical positions (on abortion, homosexuality, etc.). In these they are also similar to traditional Catholic and Orthodox views. The majority of CI adherents would not even self-identify as Protestant. Deskins 06:26, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Christianity

This article doesn't need to be in Category:Christianity because it is already in category:Christian fundamentalism and Category:Protestantism, which in "dughter categories" of Category:Christianity. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:48, 29 November 2007 (UTC)