Talk:Chinese whispers

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[edit] Opening comments

Just a quick question regarding the page move (Telephone game -> Telephone (game)): is it really generally referred to as "telephone", rather than, say, "the telephone game" (or, indeed "that telelphone game"). I don't claim to know - I have only ever known it as "Chinese whispers", but it just surprises me that that should be the usage somehow. - IMSoP 04:23, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yup, I've heard it referred to as "Telephone." Brian Kendig 19:53, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Fair enough then. - IMSoP 19:16, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

I noticed somebody decided to link the word "Chinese" in "Chinese whispers". I'm going to take it back out, because a) it looks ugly having a link in the middle of an alternative title (note that Chinese whispers redirects here); and b) I gather it's not entirely certain whether the name refers to China, the Chinese language, or is completely erroneous and doesn't really mean anything at all. If you disagree, however, feel free to say so. - IMSoP 19:16, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

"Chinese" seems to be used here as a meaningless adjective, as in "Chinese fire drill". Philwelch 18:23, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
And, Chinese finger cuffs. --Viriditas | Talk 04:57, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I also believe that the term "Chinese" here is being used in the same manner as it is used in "Chinese fire drill," but not as a meaningless adjective. There, the term "Chinese" means confused or disoriented (check the "Chinese fire drill" article here on Wikipedia). The name "Chinese whispers" for this game honestly struck me as borderline-derogatory at first glance (having never heard of the term myself). 138.69.160.1 17:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

We used to play this game at kindergarten and it was called a Broken Telephone/Gossip. I'm from Finland, and I haven't heard about the game referred as "Chinese whispers". Heidi, 14 August 2006

[edit] A written version

When I was at school we once played a written version of this kind of game. The idea is that we are shown a sentence for a few seconds, have to memorise it and then write it down to pass on to the next person. Effectively it's testing memory rather than sense of hearing. Is there a name for this game? -- Smjg 17:03, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Example used in text

I am intrigued as to why the example was chosen "Johnny can you please pick up the pencil that you dropped, and please remember to take your homework with you to school tomorrow."

It appeared anonymously in : Revision as of 14:52, 14 October 2005 71.103.222.113 (Talk | contribs)

I'm not sure an example is required at all, but why was this one chosen?


--Parasite 02:57, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese is offensive

Would it be possible to make the main page for this article "Broken Telephone" and redirect from "Chinese Whispers", listing "Chinese Whispers (offensive - racist)" as an alternative name for this game? Chinese is not used here as a meaningless adjective, but comes from the British colonial attitude to the Chinese, as gossipers who spread false information. Jane 10:20, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The name "Chinese Whispers" is not used in any racist or derogatory context. The name (at least where I live, in Australia, where I have only ever heard the name "Chinese Whispers" for the game) is completely neutral to the point where someone calling it racist didn't even come to mind until I read this page. To label it "Chinese Whispers (offensive - racist)" would be making a value judgement on the name and hence unencyclopaedic, not to mention ridiculously hypersensitive. --lbft 14:47, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Actually, that's false. People may have been ignorant about it in time, but there was once a whole gaggle of phrases that were couched in the fact that the British believed that the Chinese were inferior, and therefore the word "Chinese" was used to indicate confusion or disorganization. See [1]. Other words of this ilk included Chinese fire drill and Chinese puzzle. You'd be surprised at how many phrases seem innocent (and this one doesn't even seem innocent) until you learn their backstory. ColourBurst 02:04, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I daresay that, if the backstory is just backstory and not part of the contemporary understanding, then the 'Chinese' is merely a historical artifact that does not carry any intentionally offensive or racist overtones. Believe it or not, things do change meaning over time.
In any case, even if you personally regard the name as offensive, I couldn't find anything in WP:NAME stating that you should avoid naming an article something if it is liable to offend some, but rather that you should name it under the most common English name. If 'Chinese whispers' isn't the most common English name, then by all means move away. --lbft 15:28, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
"Broken telephone" beats "chinese whispers" 15:1 in a Google Fight. --P3d0 01:50, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
rename -google test Spencerk 03:31, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I've always known it as "Telephone". Incidentally, if you put the phrases in quotation marks, [2], Chinese whispers beats Broken telephone 4:1. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Geoffreynham (talk • contribs) 14:25, October 29, 2006 (UTC).
Lbft, the backstory is part of the contemporary understanding. If multiple people come to this talk page to complain that it's offensive, then that doesn't necessarily mean they're being anachronistic - it means that their contemporary understanding of the term is that it's offensive. Note Wikipedia:Naming conventions (identity) says when in doubt, aim for neutrality: Some terms are considered pejorative, or have negative associations, even if they are quite commonly used. schi talk 22:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The expression 'Chinese whispers' is not used in an offensive way today, and neither is it evolved from offensive roots. The prefixing 'Chinese', as the article states, simply denotes the difficulty Europeans had understanding the Chinese language; not because the language is 'garbled' or any way inferior, but because they are very different languages that have developed extremely independently of each other. While some phrases prefixed with 'Chinese, like 'Chinese fire drill', are indeed offensive, this one uses the adjective differently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.133.254 (talk) 15:20, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

To all the people accusing the offended parties of being "hypersensitive," please take a look at the Chinese fire drill page on Wikipedia which has already been linked to a number of times. Just because you cannot see how another might take offense does not mean the term is inoffensive. The slang term "gyp" for instance; I'm sure most users of this word have no idea where it comes from (at least I didn't until just recently) and yet I doubt any of them would blame someone that does for taking offense. At the very least there should be a short discussion on the topic of the possibly offensive origins of the term "Chinese whispers" as was done in the Chinese fire drill article.

I could not agree more. The title of this article needs to be changed. The word "Chinese" has a very specific meaning here: disorganized and inefficient. The etymology of the word doesn't matter: "Chinese whispers" describes a game involving confused whispering; "whispers" alone does not; therefore, "Chinese" must be the part of the phrase that denotes confusion.
I can think of other phrases based on this usage -- "Chinese gift exchange" comes to mind -- that friends of mine with Asian background find offensive. I mean -- I find it offensive, let's put it that way (full disclosure: I am of European extraction).
That said, I don't see any reason why "Chinese Whispers" shouldn't redirect transparently to a "Telephone" article. I see below that there was a vote; how upsetting that no decision was reached. Solemnavalanche 15:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was} 'No consensus Duja► 09:17, 21 December 2006 (UTC) Chinese whispers → Telephone (game) — Multiple editors have already expressed that the name "Chinese whispers" is offensive - in keeping with WP:NCI, I propose to aim for neutrality and move the page to another, very common name for the game. schi talk 23:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
  • Support Per nomination. Also open to alternatives like "Broken Telephone", etc., although my understanding is that just plain "Telephone" is the most common. schi talk 23:40, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Support I've never heard of "chinese whispers", it's always been the telephone game to me. Do we really need an article on this at all? –  Anþony  talk  04:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose Without some evidence that the name 'telephone' is significantly more common I do not believe that this article should be renamed. WP:NCI is irrelevant, especially since in contemporary usage in the name 'Chinese whispers' the word 'Chinese' is an empty fossil word. Hypersensitivity has no place in an encyclopaedia. --lbft (talk) 11:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose- I've never heard of this game being called "Telephone". It was always known as "Chinese Whispers" when I was at school, and I agree that anyone offended by the name is simply being hypersensitive. What next, objection to the legal term "Chinese Walls" (describing how the same law firm can work for opposing clients without compromising their integrity or attorney/client privilege etc)?--Commander Zulu 06:24, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
    • And I had not, until coming to this Wikipedia page, ever heard of the game being called "Chinese whispers"; it was always "Telephone" when I was a kid. Note that "Chinese walls" is a term that has been discussed in reliable sources. When I looked up "Chinese whispers" in the OED, it defined it as "Russian scandal", and defined the game under the entry for that. Unless you find a reliable source that shows that "Chinese whispers" is the more common name, I see no reason not to err on the side of neutrality. schi talk 23:12, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

*Weak oppose per more common name. -Part Deux 20:26, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

It seems to be pure speculation as to which name is more common than the other. Per Jayjg's comment below, "Chinese whispers" may be the British name. schi talk 23:12, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Interesting. I am American, and I will admit that I always heard it as the telephone game. Maybe there's merit to this suggestion. I'll strike my oppose, because if it's not a more common term, and it's possible people will get offended, it might as well go the other way (though this isn't a support statement either: a neutral). Part Deux 01:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments:
  • "Chinese whispers" is the British name. "Broken telephone" is more common elsewhere, and more clear that "Telephone". Jayjg (talk) 22:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
"Chinese Whispers" is also the name used in New Zealand and Australia, FWIW. --Commander Zulu 01:22, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Re: lbft's comments above, "Hypersensitivity" is a POV characterization, and I disagree that this is a case of hypersensitivity. WP:NCI is relevant, as I and other editors have indicated that we find the term Chinese whispers offensive, that would suggest that this offensive usage of Chinese is not an "empty fossil word". This could, of course, be due to regional variations; for example, the Wikipedia article on oriental says the term is considered neutral in the UK and other parts of the Commonwealth, but it is certainly considered offensive by many in the U.S. Chinese whispers may be considered totally neutral where you are from, but others have indicated that they find it offensive. schi talk 00:16, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Also note that there are no reliable sources cited in this article regarding the name of the game, that one name is more common than the other, or really, anything else for that matter. schi talk 00:17, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
      • I don't see any references to reliable sources at all in this article. We should delete it rather than worrying about what to call it. –  Anþony  talk  00:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
        • True, there are no references to reliable sources. It may be difficult to find reliable sources that report on children's games like this. I suppose you could take it to AfD if you want. schi talk 23:12, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] name, references, changes

I've made some edits, mainly to add references in the light of the foregoing debate. I removed some bits:

  • This describes not the game, but the error it seeks to caution against:
An apocryphal story in the UK is of a general who sent the message "Send reinforcements, we are going to advance" back to HQ. After passing through many intermediaries it finally arrived as "Send three and fourpence, we are going to a dance".
  • I don't see how the line can fail to be completed:
Even if the line is not completed, the last few people to receive the message can compare this with the original
  • The second half is vague and redundant:
The game has been used in schools to simulate the spread of gossip and its harmful effects, and it has implications in many topics, like bureaucracy, religion, politics and Academia.

I think the article should be moved to Telephone game. The only argument against seems to be that political correctness is not a reason to move; but in any case the history shows the article was first at Telephone game and later moved to Chinese whispers; so by the priority principle it should not have been moved. Having said which, all the references I've added use "Chinese whispers"...

I think the current examples are rather trivial and not illustrative of the game; they exploit its familiarity for humour, which is not helpful to a reader seeking to understand a game they do not already know. If there is a published account of one or more actual games, it would be more useful: whether gleaned from some dry academic tome, or from a journalistic colour-piece, or from a self-indulgent memoir. jnestorius(talk) 22:51, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History?

Seems to me like the so-claimed military history is more of an urban legend. Otherwise, why does everyone on the net refer to "a general", but nobody says who he was, and apart from one instance, in what war it was?Ladypine 21:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish

  • Spanish: el teléfono estropeado/dañado/descompuesto ("broken telephone") el telefonito

The spanish line seems wrong. Seems like it says "the tiny telephone" at the end of the line. Is this an alternative name? Or should this not be there at all?Ladypine 22:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

¡Listo! Removed the "telefonito" mention, which I imagine was added by someone who calls it that in their region. —SaulPerdomo 00:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Versions

The children sit in a circle and the originator on the message coming back to them gives both original and end versions. Jackiespeel 18:07, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Religion/Urban Legends

There could be correlation of how urban legends begin and slowly get exaggerated, maybe also helping explain how Jesus goes from preacher of peace to son of God etc.


[edit] "See Also"?

Among the links at the bottom to other wiki-articles is the link translation relay, which redirects to this article. Either the link should be removed or a separate article for translation relay should be made. Akatari (talk) 16:58, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "reflects the former stereotype in Europe"

it is very nice to know each country in europe had the same stereotype. 194.76.29.2 (talk) 09:23, 26 February 2008 (UTC)