Talk:Cherokee language

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[edit] Useless Phrase

I deleted the unnecessary phrase "and is difficult for English-speakers to learn." All languages are difficult to learn and I don´t see why English-speakers are singled out. I doubt it is easier for Dutch-speakers, for example, to learn Cherokee than English-speakers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.49.55.253 (talk) 23:04, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

This article was vandalised - somebody swapped out the word "Cherokee" for "retard" in the language box. I went in and deleted most of that, but unfortunately I don't have the knowledge to replace it with the correct information (I came here to learn about it). Hopefully somebody more knowledgeable than I will come along and update it. If not, I'll come back in a few days when time permits and chase up some links to put in the correct information. 75.19.177.127 13:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cherokee Phonemes

The current article indicates that the difference between t and d (and k & g likewise) is voicing. However, it seems to me, after reading an article on the Rosetta Project that the phonemic difference is aspiration. Thus,

  • t /tʰ/
  • d /t/
  • k /kʰ/
  • g /k/
  • tl /tˡʰ/
  • dl /tˡ/

This is not to say that these stops are never voiced, it just means that the voicing is not the phonemic difference. Does this seem like a worthy change? If you want to see that article I mentioned, it's at the Rosetta Project (that link should work).

-Benjamin

There is no phonemic difference between unaspirated and aspirated stops and affricates in Cherokee (which are commonly heard as unvoiced/voiced by L2 learners). What you are describing with your IPA transcriptions are allophones. The affricate is mistranscribed, however. It is not segment /t/ + segment /l/ or some version thereof but rather only one segment. MTBradley 17:53, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I just took a closer look at some information I have on the Cherokee language, and came up with the following list of Cherokee letters, using Durbin Feeling's practical orthography.

  • g  /k/
  • k  /kh/ [kʰ]
  • h  /h/
  • l  /l/
  • hl  /ɬ/
  • m  /m/
  • n  /n/
  • hn  /hn/
  • gw  /kw/ [kʷ]
  • kw  /kwh/
  • s  /s/
  • d  /t/
  • t  /th/ [tʰ]
  • dl  /tl/ [tˡ]
  • tl  /tlh/ [tˡʰ]
  • j  /ts/ [ʦ, ʧ, ʤ]
  • w  /ɰ/ (velar approximant), or sometimes /w/
  • hw  /hɰ/
  • y  /j/
  • yh  /hj/
  • ʔ  /ʔ/

Vowels

  • a  /a/
  • e  /e/
  • i  /i/
  • o  /o/
  • u  /u/
  • v  /ə̃/

I believe this is correct, so I will add this to the article. I will also put my references at the bottom of the page. Let me know if you have any corrections, suggestions, or questions!

-Benjamin

[edit] Syllabary

Should the Syllabary have its own page? If no objections I will go ahead and move to Cherokee script - FrancisTyers 02:56, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

That would probably be a good idea, especially if these articles get expanded. (I just created a link to "Cherokee script", and then realized it didn't go anywhere!)
I made a correction. There are many recorded cases of illiterate people inventing writing systems. Perhaps Sequoyah was the only one in the US, but there's Vai in Liberia, Afaka in Surinam, Hmong in Laos, etc etc, and all are syllabaries. On one Micronesian island, when missionaries introduced the Roman alphabet and said "this is the letter bee", etc., the people completed the script by creating letters for ba, be, bo, bu! --kwami 09:10, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I agree with this idea, I came to the talk page thinking a separate page for the writing system might make sense. I would suggest Cherokee syllabary be added as the new article title with a redirect from Cherokee script. (Google gives "cherokee script" : 2,230; "cherokee syllabary" : 20,800 hits). --babbage 18:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map

The map has got to be wrong; surely there is a significant number of Cherokee speakers at the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma? --Prosfilaes 06:45, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, today. But all the American language maps show the estimated location at time of contact. kwami 07:30, 2005 August 30 (UTC)
I discovered the Cherokee language is spoken by a few thousand transplants from the Dust bowl whom arrived in California during the 1930's and a large number of "okies" are of Native American descent in the first place. The language has made a small but noticable comeback in the Cherokee Nation and those of Cherokee ancestry across the U.S. are learning the language in increasing numbers, although the native tongue of Cherokees for living in the United States is English. +71.102.53.48 (talk) 06:04, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Syllabics/Unicode/Pronunciation table

Delete this table if is not so useful...

Syllabics Unicode Pronunciation
Ꭰ 13A0 A
Ꭱ 13A1 E
Ꭲ 13A2 I
Ꭳ 13A3 O
Ꭴ 13A4 U
Ꭵ 13A5 V
Ꭶ 13A6 Ga
Ꭷ 13A7 Ka
Ꭸ 13A8 Ge
Ꭹ 13A9 Gi
Ꭺ 13AA Go
Ꭻ 13AB Gu
Ꭼ 13AC Gv
Ꭽ 13AD Ha
Ꭾ 13AE He
Ꭿ 13AF Hi
Ꮀ 13B0 Ho
Ꮁ 13B1 Hu
Ꮂ 13B2 Hv
Ꮃ 13B3 La
Ꮄ 13B4 Le
Ꮅ 13B5 Li
Ꮆ 13B6 Lo
Ꮇ 13B7 Lu
Ꮈ 13B8 Lv
Ꮉ 13B9 Ma
Ꮊ 13BA Me
Ꮋ 13BB Mi
Ꮌ 13BC Mo
Ꮍ 13BD Mu
Ꮎ 13BE Na
Ꮏ 13BF Hna
Ꮐ 13C0 Nah
Ꮑ 13C1 Ne
Ꮒ 13C2 Ni
Ꮓ 13C3 No
Ꮔ 13C4 Nu
Ꮕ 13C5 Nv
Ꮖ 13C6 Qua
Ꮗ 13C7 Que
Ꮘ 13C8 Qui
Ꮙ 13C9 Quo
Ꮚ 13CA Quu
Ꮛ 13CB Quv
Ꮜ 13CC Sa
Ꮝ 13CD S
Ꮞ 13CE Se
Ꮟ 13CF Si
Ꮠ 13D0 So
Ꮡ 13D1 Su
Ꮢ 13D2 Sv
Ꮣ 13D3 Da
Ꮤ 13D4 Ta
Ꮥ 13D5 De
Ꮦ 13D6 Te
Ꮧ 13D7 Di
Ꮨ 13D8 Ti
Ꮩ 13D9 Do
Ꮪ 13DA Du
Ꮫ 13DB Dv
Ꮬ 13DC Dla
Ꮭ 13DD Tla
Ꮮ 13DE Tle
Ꮯ 13DF Tli
Ꮰ 13E0 Tlo
Ꮱ 13E1 Tlu
Ꮲ 13E2 Tlv
Ꮳ 13E3 Tsa
Ꮴ 13E4 Tse
Ꮵ 13E5 Tsi
Ꮶ 13E6 Tso
Ꮷ 13E7 Tsu
Ꮸ 13E8 Tsv
Ꮹ 13E9 Wa
Ꮺ 13EA We
Ꮻ 13EB Wi
Ꮼ 13EC Wo
Ꮽ 13ED Wu
Ꮾ 13EE Wv
Ꮿ 13EF Ya
Ᏸ 13F0 Ye
Ᏹ 13F1 Yi
Ᏺ 13F2 Yo
Ᏻ 13F3 Yu
Ᏼ 13F4 Yv 


¢ ᏁᏕ NevilleDNZ 15:56, 15 September 2005 (UTC)  ¢

[edit] Tsalagi

If the native name of the language is Tsalagi as stated in the "Grammar" section, shouldn't it also be mentioned in the definition? (Instead of current "???") --Cyco130 03:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

It's not ???. It's three Cherokee letters that aren't displaying correctly on your system.--Prosfilaes 03:55, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Oh yes! Thank you. But I still think that a romanized version should be included, as it'is for Arabic, Chinese, Japanese etc. --Cyco130 05:30, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
I've added {{unicode}}, which should help with the display of the Cherokee script. --Gareth Hughes 21:22, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, what I meant was that other articles about languages using non-roman scripts contain: language's native name in the native script _and_ language's native name in the romanized script. So I still think that "tsalagi" should be added. Any ideas? --Cyco130 01:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cherokee Slang

Cherokee Slang is up for deletion and I thought I'd leave a message here in case anyone is interested. I don't think it's strong enough to stand as an article itself, but there is a reference given, and perhaps some info there could be salvaged here?

Just FYI. --DanielCD 21:40, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I posted a link to the wiktionary and transwiki'ed the article into the wiktionary, and asked the closing admin on the Afd to archive the original article to preserve the content. Waya sahoni 04:18, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] [No Title]

I like the article -- very informative. FYI, "tone sandhi" is mis-explained. It looks like some information got lost. Tone sandhi is the change of tone when in the environment of another tone. E.g., in Mandarin, tone 3 becomes tone 2 when it occurs before tone 3 (3 3 -> 2 3). This is not the same as the simplification of a tone system over time, which is kind of how the article reads at present.

Jonathan —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 140.109.150.55 (talk • contribs) 08:32, 27 February 2006.

Actually, Oklahoma Cherokee seems to have become more tonally complex over the period since the Removal. North Carolina Cherokee has only two phonemic pitch distinctions. If I understand the issue correctly, Oklahoma Cherokee contour tones are related to the lose of glottal stop.

Perhaps the article is meant more specifically to say that Oklahoma Cherokee is undergoing tonal simplification at the present time. MTBradley 17:48, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Southern Iroquoian

Article is not correct in stating that Cherokee is the only southern Iroquoian language still spoken. Tuscarora is spoken in Ontario and New York State, and perhaps has a few speakers in North Carolina.

Tuscarora isn't a southern Iroquoian language; it's in the family of northern Iroquoian language.--Prosfilaes 15:55, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Tuscarora IS a southern Iroquois language and very closely related to Cherokee.

Recall that the ancestral homeland of the Tuscarora is in North Carolina. The only reason Tuscarora is spoken in New York State and Ontario is that the majority of Tuscarora migrated to New York State in the late 18th century and came under the protection of the Oneida (and became the "sixth nation" of the Iroquois League). Some Tuscarora are still in North Carolina, where a few of them probably still speak the language.

So the article should be changed. Tom129.93.17.213 20:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

In all linguistic classifications of Iroquoian I've seen, Tuscarora is classified as Northern Iroquoian (more specifically, the Tuscarora-Nottoway subbranch). This is how Lyle Campbell (an expert on the historical linguistics of Native languages) classifies it, how Marianne Mithun (an expert on Iroquoian languages generally, and Tuscaroran specifically, who has worked with a number of Tuscaroran speakers) classifies it, how the Ethnologue classifies it...
What is your evidence for claiming that Tuscarora is Southern, not Northern, Iroquoian? --Miskwito 21:10, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tsalagi and tsa-la-gi ga-wo-ni-hi-is-di

What is the difference between Tsalagi and tsa-la-gi ga-wo-ni-hi-is-di? Should tsa-la-gi ga-wo-ni-hi-is-di be capitalized and become Tsa-la-gi ga-wo-ni-hi-is-di?

ICE77 -- 81.104.129.226 19:59, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cherokee Scouting

Can someone render "Be Prepared", the Scout Motto, into Cherokee script? Thanks! Chris 03:34, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Useless encoding

Is there any chance of having the symbols as image files i.e. jpgs/pngs etc. I can't see a single thing on this page other than IPA, Roman and the distribution map. --MacRusgail 04:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

This article was vandalised - somebody swapped out the word "Cherokee" for "retard" in the language box. I went in and deleted most of that, but unfortunately I don't have the knowledge to replace it with the correct information (I came here to learn about it). Hopefully somebody more knowledgeable than I will come along and update it. If not, I'll come back in a few days when time permits and chase up some links to put in the correct information. 75.19.177.127 13:26, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for helping! See Help:Reverting for more info on how to help recover from vandalism. --Kbh3rdtalk 19:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tones

I think that it would be useful to include information about the properties of the tones like in the articles for other tonal languages(i.e contour or register tones, pitch of the tones etc.) If anyone knows anything about something like this please put it in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.185.21.163 (talk) 23:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why not Latin alphabet even?

Why do they never use the Latin alphabet? May they not either use both Sequoyah and Latin?

--81.228.158.173 (talk) 13:14, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Your question reflects a lack of understanding about the cultures of these indigenous people. The Cherokee (as well as all indigenous peoples) have been "Europeanized" to the point that much of their culture has been completely lost. Why should they make themselves conform to a foreign culture even more? The fact is, the Cherokee now teach the language to their children as a first-language (not a second-language) right along side English. A four or five-year-old school child isn't going to know how to read the word TSALAGI any better than ᏣᎳᎩ, so why not teach them the right way in the first place? From the Cherokee perspective, your question is like asking us, "Why don't you learn English by using a Cyrillic alphabet?" It just doesn't make sense...Why use a foreign alphabet to learn your own language? (Incidentally, if you can't read ᏣᎳᎩ, you need to install the font from here.) ++Arx Fortis (talk) 23:29, 16 May 2008 (UTC)