Talk:Cherem

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Contents 1 First two sections 2 The Procedure 3 vs. Anathema 4 Still in use

[edit] First two sections

The first two sections of this article need to be revised. The discussion of modern applicability of the cherem is especially inaccurate and unhelpful. HKT 19:37, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Procedure

Does anyone know the procedure for the Cherem excommunication? I heard it had something to do with black candles (possibly and likely an urban legend) and according to the Exilarch#Income and privileges article, the blowing of the shofar had a part in it. Anyone have any insight? Valley2city 03:35, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you read that in the books about Harry Potter? It's definitely not true. Nothing with black candles and nothing with a shofar. --Chussid 12:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Your thinking of one specific Cherem - the Jerusalem Cherem against teaching Modern Hebrew or European languages and of teaching secular classes and courses in the city. This was performed by Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld and did in fact feature black candles and a shofar. The black candles were a sign of mourning, not spookyness, and the shofar was a figurative call to war against the New Yishuv. The shofar is still used in this regard in ultra-Orthodox Jerusalem calls for protests. This particular structure of doing things is called the Pulsa Dnura or something like that and was invented by none other than the Amram Blau of folk legend. It also features the members of the Beis Din removing the Torah Scrolls from the aaron and pronouncing the curses of Deut. on anyone who breaks the cherem. 79.177.239.120 (talk) 10:46, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] vs. Anathema

Wouldn't the equivalent of Cherem be closer to someone receiving anathema rather than excommunication in the Catholic Church? Catholics are still urged to fellowship with someone who is excommunicated in hopes of bringing them to repentance, but anathema is a more extreme censure. --User:MsgrCloche 17:49 17 January 2007 (UTC)

If your definition is correct, then yes. Cherem also requires the person in cherem to exhibit signs of mourning, and is largely dependant on the individual in cherem respecting the authority of the court and the institution of cherem. Also, it only lasts 30 days, which the article currently leaves out.Cherem against abstracts or inanimate things goes on forever. 79.177.239.120 (talk) 10:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Still in use

The article says that cherem is no longer in use, but that is not true - it's still in use in cases where a man refuses to grant his wife a divorce. I've also seen it in use in the case of man who got into relationship with a married woman. These days when the courts no longer have secular power, cherem is the only major tool left to the courts to punish someone, or attempt to change their behavior. I think it's quite inaccurate to claim it's not in use anymore. Ariel. 03:43, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I removed this unsourced material as it is rediculous. Apostates can't be put in cherem as they are already outside the community. "The only type of cherem which still exists in the general Jewish community is the social ban against Jews for Jesus and the other Messianic Judaism groups. Jews of present-day Jewish denominations reject congregating with members of these groups, which mainstream Judaism believes are evangelistic Protestant Christian organizations attempting to convert Jews to Christianity. They are viewed as missionaries who are trying to end Judaism, one person at a time, by converting Jews into Christians. ^{[citation needed]}" 79.177.239.120 (talk) 10:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)