Talk:Chechen Republic of Ichkeria

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Russia Portal Chechen Republic of Ichkeria is part of the WikiProject Russian history, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Russian history. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former Countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of now-defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale. (FAQ).Add comments
Additional information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following to the template call: <!-- 1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points are appropriately cited. --> |B-Class-1=yes/no <!-- 2. It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain major omissions or inaccuracies. --> |B-Class-2=yes/no <!-- 3. It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content. --> |B-Class-3=yes/no <!-- 4. It is free from major grammatical errors. --> |B-Class-4=yes/no <!-- 5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. --> |B-Class-5=yes/no

Contents 1 Chechen Republic of Ichkeria recognition 2 recognition 3 Map 4 Coat of arms 5 "New" (not really) flag 6 Caucasian Emirate is only half of the story 7 Infobox 8 A segment of text 9 Hmm?

[edit] Chechen Republic of Ichkeria recognition

I'm going to post this on the talk pages for all three articles in question to try and get some consensus.

• From the Taliban article: despite having diplomatic recognition from only three countries: the United Arab Emirates, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia, as well as the unrecognized government of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria.
• From the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan article: Only Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates ever recognized the Taliban government.
• From the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria article: There are no countries that officially recognize Chechen independence... it was recognized by the Taliban, but the ChRI never recognised the Taliban in turn

So did they recognise the Taliban or not? --Horses In The Sky 20:15, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Yandarbiyev did, as a private person (in 2000).

[edit] recognition

I don´t know if the talibans recognized CRI but I am sure that the Georgian Republic, in the time of Gamsaxurdia recognized the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria.

Prove it. --Golbez 20:45, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map

Is there a map of Chechen Republic of Ichkeria? Thanks. Georgianis | (t) 07:33, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Isn't it coterminous with Chechnya? --Golbez 08:53, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

This one?

-- Georgianis | (t) 10:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coat of arms

It's a lying wolf in a circle. I can't provide it now, but you can see it on the first of these armoured vehicles. --HanzoHattori 13:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "New" (not really) flag

For a few years now there's the black flag of Jihad added in (alike the red stars to many flags once, for example in Yugoslavia). It's cut-and-pasted on the green field, in the oval-shape. --HanzoHattori 16:42, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

But I think it was introduced after 1999 (or maybe in 1998?). --HanzoHattori 16:45, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Generally, this page needs to be proof-read by a native speaker of English - this would create a better impression on the reader —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.217.149.67 (talk) 19:27, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Caucasian Emirate is only half of the story

Actually, Umarov's action was a weird act by the active president who has dissaloved his own country by a decree. But it's not like everyone obeyed. Akhmed Zakayev (his former personal friend and comrade) et al (including reportedly many active ethnic Chechen fighters) believe ChRI still exists. Umarov's clique now hounds them with the threats of actions by the Emirate's mukhabarat and what not. --HanzoHattori (talk) 01:28, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Btw Zakayev's article needs to be updated, he's now the prime minister of Ichkeria's government-in-exile. --HanzoHattori (talk) 01:30, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure. After reading more of Umarov's statements it looks more like he incorporated Ichkeria into the Caucasian Emirate. Where does Zakayev claim he's president of Ichkeria now? - PietervHuis 01:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Prime Minister. The post of president is either vacant or abolished, I'm not sure (in any case no one removed Umarov, he removed himself). See Chechenpress for their part of the story and Kavkaz Center for the other one (and their respective associated websites). --HanzoHattori (talk) 02:20, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/2007/11/30/9148.shtml is a repost from Jamestown Foundation (so you don't think they suddenly talk about themselves in third person ;)) but pretty informative. Somewhere out there there are also their mukhabarat threats etc. Zakayev in the meantime attempts to salvage of Ichkeria as much as he can, for example http://www.chechenpress.co.uk/english/news/2007/12/18/01.shtml --HanzoHattori (talk) 02:25, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

On a side-note I don't think the idea of the Caucasian Emirate is all that bad (from rebel perspective). If you check out the history of all the wars in the caucasus you can see that the muslim states that did not want to be subject to russian authority tried to form a state similar to the caucasian emirate, like the mountain republic and the caucasian immamate. Sheikh Abdul Halim also wanted to work together with the other states and thats how the caucasus front was established (if im correct). - PietervHuis 02:39, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Enlisting North Caucasian fighters to operate in their own homelands (volunteers in Chechnya were already in '94) is the other thing than capitulating to their (and Movladi Udugov's) demands to abolish the whole idea of the Chechen state entirely. Personally I see this as an act of treason. If you saw the link I showed you, even "pan-Islamist" Basayev, who basically co-ordinated the Caucasian Front and even died in Ingushetia, didn't agree on any of this. --HanzoHattori (talk) 03:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure? You might be right but at the same time let's not forget the Dagestan War, where Basayev wanted independence for Dagestan too. - PietervHuis 05:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pietervhuis (talk • contribs)

In his long declaration, Astemirov explained why the Emirate was declared now. The KBR rebel leader revealed some details in his audio message about how the rebels prepared the establishment of the Emirate. The most interesting thing in what Astemirov had to say concerned his negotiations with the Chechen warlord Shamil Basaev in Nalchik, the capital of Kabardino-Balkaria, in 2005. According to Astemirov, Basaev met him and Ilyas Gorchkhanov, then the leader of the Ingush rebels. Astemirov and Gorchkhanov told Basaev that they wanted to create the Caucasian Front in the North-West Caucasus and to initiate a large-scale struggle against Russian rule in the region. At the same time, Basaev said that the Ingush and KBR rebels should give an oath of loyalty to Abdul-Khalim Sadulaev, then the leader of the Chechen rebels. Astemirov said that the negotiations were not easy, because Basaev demanded from Gorchkhanov and Astemirov that they cease any hostilities against the authorities if the Kremlin agreed to have peace talks with Sadulaev. Astemirov and Gorchkhanov insisted that they would agree to this only if Basaev promised them that the future independent Chechen state would be totally Islamic, without any of the attributes of an infidel governing structure, like a presidency or parliament, and would not have the word "republic" in its name. Basaev rejected these demands and said that if Astemirov and Gorchkhanov did not agree to give an oath of loyalty to Abdul-Khalim Sadulaev as the president of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria they should not expect any assistance from Basaev and other Chechen rebel commanders. Astemirov and Geriskhanov ultimately agreed to Basaev's demands.

Astemirov said, however, that after the deaths of Sadulaev and then Basaev, he sent a letter to Dokka Umarov asking him what he thought about the idea of declaring an Emirate that would replace Ichkeria. Umarov agreed and appointed Astemirov head of the Caucasian insurgency's Sharia Court instead of Mansur Yelmurzaev, a Chechen Islamic scholar who was against the Emirate idea and urged saving Ichkeria as a symbol of the Caucasian resistance.

In their own words. --HanzoHattori (talk) 11:48, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

I'm thinking of replacing the makeshift infobox on this page by a 'former country infobox' (like the one used in the article about the Irish Republic and add a lot of info. This is a sensitive subject so let me know what you think about it. ForrestSjap (talk) 19:02, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Yea, that's a good idea, it would be great if you could include a similar map with Chechnya highlighted along with it. - PietervHuis (talk) 12:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I think Wikimedia Commons has one, I'll start working on it today.ForrestSjap (talk) 12:24, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Here's the new infobox, let me know what you think about it. ForrestSjap (talk) 14:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Noxçiyn Respublika Noxçiyçö Нохчийн Республика Нохчийчоь Chechen Republic of Ichkeria Чеченская Республика Ичкерия In Exile since 2000 ← 1991 – 1999 → Flag Coat of arms Anthem Anthem of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria The Chechen Republic in the Caucasus region Capital Grozny, renamed Dzokhar-Ghala in 1996 Language(s) Chechen, Russian Religion Sunni Islam Government Republic President of Ichkeria  - 1991 – 1996 Dzokhar Dudayev  - 1996 – 1997 Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev  - 1997 – 2005 Aslan Maskhadov  - 2005 – 2006 Abdul Halim Sadulayev  - 2006 – 2007 Doku Umarov History  - Collapse of the Soviet Union 7 February 1990  - Dissolution of the Chechen-Ingush ASSR 1 November 1991  - First Chechen War 11 December 1994 – 31 August 1996  - War in Dagestan 7 August 1999 – 14 September 1999  - Second Chechen War 26 August 1999  - Separatist Insurgency 6 February 2000 – present Area 15,300 km² (5,907 sq mi) Currency Russian ruble¹ ¹ Plans to introduce Chechnya's own currency, the Nahar, were abandoned when the Second Chechen War broke out.

Looks great to me, I'll look into making a better map. I wouldnt't include "war in dagestan" though, since chechnya didnt have much to do with it and the iipb wasnt a representative of the chechen government - PietervHuis (talk) 23:43, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It's about important historic events. Listing the War in Dagestan does not suggest that the war was waged by the ChRI but rather that it had a significant impact on it, which it did, since it was the casus belli of the Second Chechen War.ForrestSjap (talk) 09:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

It was the cacus belli for Russia, who used it as a pretext for reinvading Ichkeria. It kinda does suggest that the war was waged by the ChRI, even though the ChRI condemned the invasion. The war wasn't on chechen soil so theoratically we shouldn't list it. - PietervHuis (talk) 13:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not ideal, but I think we can use this map [1] for now. - PietervHuis (talk) 14:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A segment of text

The following text seems to disappear from this article:

In lieu of the devastated economic structure, kidnapping emerged as the principal source of income countrywide, procuring over $200 million during the three year independence of the chaotic fledgling state.^[1] In May 1998, Valentin Vlasov, a personal envoy of Boris Yeltsin, was kidnapped and released on November 13; the Russian government reportedly paid a $7 million ransom for his release.^[2] On October 25, 1998, Shadid Bargishev, Chechnya's top anti-kidnapping official, was killed in a remote controlled car bombing as he was about to begin a major campaign against hostage-takers. In March of 1999, General Gennadiy Shpigun, the Kremlin's envoy to Chechnya, was kidnapped at the airport in Grozny, and ultimately found dead in 2000.

Political violence was rife as well. On December 10 Mansur Tagirov, Chechnya's top prosecutor, disappeared while returning to Grozny. On June 21 the Chechen security chief, Lecha Khulygov, and a guerrilla commander, Vakha Dzhafarov, fatally shot each other in an argument. The internal violence in Chechnya peaked on July 16, 1998, when fighting broke out between Maskhadov's National Guard force led by Sulim Yamadayev and radical Wahhabi-sect militants in the town of Gudermes; over 50 people were reported killed and the state of emergency was declared in Chechnya.^[3]

I think that is important and should be mentioned somewhere.Biophys (talk) 01:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I have seen your next. Current version tells nothing about kidnapping of Vlasov, which is a notable thing. It tells nothing about Tagirov, and so on. It is not a good idea to delete comments of other users, especially if they are wrong. If you do this with other users, they might blame you of WP:CIV violation. Good luck!Biophys (talk) 03:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC) May be text about kidnappings should be moved to another article?Biophys (talk) 03:15, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree, this information should not have been removed.ForrestSjap (talk) 09:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Once again I did not just delete an entire segment of text. I rewrote parts of it, and added in new information inbetween. I've put Tagirov back in, not vlasov though. Vlasov wasnt killed he was simply kidnapped by criminals for a while. I try to remove small details like that. It's already noted that there was a lot of kidnapping, no need to give out a list of names of people who were kidnapped. This is a page about a country. You don't find such information on Russia for example (it should belong on the border incident of the 2nd chechen war) - PietervHuis (talk) 16:28, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps Vlasov's kidnapping belongs to another article, such as Kidnappings in Chechnya. But it would be good to place this somewhere.Biophys (talk) 19:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hmm?

Yeah, Hmm..I think that it isnt right to have the forward going to the Chechen Republic, because the Chechen Rep. of Ichkeria still does exist, which proves in the infobox of having a president in the year 2007. --88.149.120.201 (talk) 17:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Thats why it says in Exile since 2000...- PietervHuis (talk) 18:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)