Talk:Charlie Crist/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Major Overhaul

Major overhaul of the page. I have removed the clean up and stub notices, as well as the Daily Kos and radio call-in refference. There are much better sources to be quoting on that topic (i.e.-Florida's largest daily newspaper, the St. Petersburg Times) -ALC 27 July, 23:31 UTC

Educator Category

Why have we put Crist in the educator category? I can't recall hearing anything about Crist's ever having been an "educator" per se, and I don't think his stint as Education Commissioner qualifies him for this category. ALC Washington 18:55, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

My criteria for placing Crist into the Educator category was his service as Commissioner of Education. While he was not an educator in the traditional sense, as commissioner, Crist was the chief schools officer of Florida and controlled the education systems and how children statewide were educated. He worked to implement new systems for education and policies. This seems to be enough to place him into the Educator category. Prez2016
Don't you think this is misleading, though? Most readers will think that if he is in the "educator" category, he was an educator, not simply involved in the administration of state education programs-- much like Frank Brogan, who was indeed an educator and a Commissioner of Education in Florida. Would we include a prominent textbook manufacturer without classroom experience in the "educator" category simply because he was involved in the "education industry"? I think we would do well to leave the "educator" category to those who have educator experience, not people merely involved in activities ancillary to actual education, such as government administration of schools. ALC Washington 10:53, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree with ALC on this one. I think it's disingenuous to put a politician who has no "true" education experience in this category. Ufrh4 20:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC)ufrh4

Given our discussion here over the last three weeks, and the lack of a response in the last week from Prez2016, I have removed the page from the "Educator" category. If there are lingering issues, we can discuss them here. ALC Washington 23:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Sexual Preference Information

Crist supporters may prefer not to have any discussion of his sexual preference on this page, but the simple fact is that the speculation surrounding it will be a major issue in the Republican primary, even if only through innuendo, because homosexuality itself will be a major issue in the Republican primary. See, for example, the comments on the St. Petersburg Times's blog to any post regarding the primary. As it was, I thought that the way I phrased it previously was fairly objective and relevant. It certainly is not libelous or false. ALC Washington 18:55, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

First of all, I'm not a Crist supporter. I haven't made up my mind as to which candidate I will support in the Florida Governor's race--Republican or Democrat. My point in editing is that innuendo and rumor do not belong in an encylopedia, which should only embrace fact. In regards to the blog that you cite, it was specifically something planted by the other camp to raise speculation. In my mind, that does not belong in a factual biography unless it can be proven. It actually shouldn't have even been published by the paper--it did not meet journalistic standards.
Crist's sexual preference has become a major issue in this campaign. Not to mention it seems to be a poor decision.
I shouldn't have used the Times' blog as a evidence for my view. However, I would still make three points in favor of reinstating the language at the end of the article. 1) The langauge was not just about the speculation or the innuendo. It also included recognition of Crist's numerous public statements that he is straight and not gay. 2) The speculation surrounding his sexuality, while inappropriate in the minds of some (including my own), is very much a reality. A search of the St. Petersburg Times website (as Florida's largest newspaper) revealed a number of published stories which referenced the issue. Crist has recognized this by making several plain statements that he is straight, not gay. Here is the latest. If it were not an issue, Crist would not have had to make these statements as frequently as he had. 3) Issues regarding homosexuality are playing a big role in the campaign because of factors such as the ballot initiative to ban homosexual marriage in Florida. Some newspapers have reported that it is affecting Crist's ability to fundraise among the religious right. As a result, the recognized, acknowledged, published controversy regarding Crist's orientation is also relevant, as it related to this issue. 4) You write that, "In my mind, that does not belong in a factual biography unless it can be proven." What can be proven is that there is speculation, that Crist has denied the rumors, and that it matters in this current primary. That is what was included and why we should include the information. ALC Washington 15:50, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Count me as a vote for inclusion. The sexual preference has been covered quite extensively in the Florida media. Moreover (though this alone is not sufficient evidence) this tpic seems to be one of the first things that come up about Crist when Floridians chat about Crist (in my experience). Interestingstuffadder 20:14, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
You make a good argument and perhaps you are right, ALC Washington. I made my assumption based on sources within the Gallagher campaign who have stated that it will be an "undercover" issue in the campaign and I guess I just have sympathy for those who are subjected to a rumor mill. As I stated, I felt the "Times" was wrong to include the topic in the story that they wrote--it was an obvious plant. In response to Interestingsuffadder's comments, I don't buy into the "extensively" argument. Yes, it has popped up here and there, but always as gossip (or Crist's boneheaded response to gossip, which he should have never acknowledged)--no doubt as a result of an underhanded campaign. As far as fundraising goes, I think the numbers speak for themselves. User:ufrh

Given our discussion here over the last three weeks, I have reinserted the sexual preference information, though I have changed it to "is hetersexual," instead of "is not homosexual." This seems more NPOV to me. If there are lingering objections, we can discuss them further here. ALC Washington 23:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Photo

Though the last photo was good, I have changed it out for a different photo from the campaign website which appears less like a campaign flyer photo, and appears to be more NPOV. This photo is also more of a head-on shot, and has less of a shadow over Crist's face. ALC Washington 23:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


Re-write 3/4

I appreciate the large amount of research provided by Quberoot. As the governor's race get closer, however, we need to avoid the urge to include in Crist's article a summary of every other newspaper story written about the candidate. If it is really newsworthy-- think: "would this be talked about a decent amount in the week before the election?"-- then it should be included, but not as its own section. Usually one of two sentences will suffice. At this point in a long campaign, there are going to be a lot of extraordinarily non-notable stories written involving Crist. The politics sections fill their pages with information about every minor interest group or union endorsement, and every fundraising hiccup. They don't usually merit a full section.

For instance, I have successfully defended leaving in information about the sexual preference speculation. But it certainly does not merit it's own section, and as a result I have folded it back into the main bio. Please also try to condense information, limiting yourself to what is relevant to Crist in particular: Lee Drury DeCesare's name doesn't belong in this article. Avoid the temptation to include lots of extraneous information.

If we do this, the article should remain strong, and a good reference for those looking for information on the race on the web. ALC Washington 11:22, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I would think anyone researching Crist would want to know WHO is making allegations regarding his sexuality. Also, the Crist campaign did not return checks from both of the donors: it returned two company checks and says it never received one from the Ukranian official. Please do research before changing others' work. Quberoot
Hi, Quberoot. Please note that I have made a good faith effort to work with your edits rather than reverting them all, in the spirit of Wikipedia. I- and I am sure the entire Wikipedia community-- would appreciate it if you would do the same. Wholesale reverts of anything but vandalism are inappropriate. As a result, I have reverted back to my original edit while incorporating the information you have provided in the mean time. As per your two specific points above:
  1. The speculation regarding Crist's sexuality is just that-- speculation. There have been no out-and-out accusations regarding Crist's sexuality, just a lot of rumors which have fed the speculation. Lee Drury DeCesare's question was certainly not an accusation. It was perhaps the first time Crist had denied being homosexual publicly, but this fact does not merit the controversy its own section. Everything that can be confirmed and which the voter needs to know can be encapsulated in the sentence on his sexuality as it existed before your edit.
  2. In fundraising, the reason I put it as "the checks in question" is because the checks in question are checks from the company under investigation, not the Ukrainian official. The controversy surrounding him was not that he paid to for the dinner but that he attended. The manner in which I modified your edit reflects this, so there is not factual inaccuracy here. I did, however, pare down the information a great deal to reflect the relative importance of the controversy, which really only deserves limited mention at the moment and will probably deserve no mention by July. In fact, come July or so I would probably support consolidation of the information into a single clause of a single sentence, perhaps beginning, "Crist has not been immune to funding controversy in the primary;..." in the fundraising section. What I want to emphasize here, however, is that your wholesale revert of this particular section was not justified by what you perceived (erroneously) to be a factual inaccuracy. In such a situation, the proper move would have been to correct the content of the content of the sentence within the new edit. The whole point of my edits has been to condense information and eliminate extraneous summarizing of newspaper reporting. If you have issues with that-- as opposed to factual accuracy-- then we can discuss it here before you revert anything else.
I would also remind you that if this continues you run the risk of violating the WP:3RR. No one wants to see that sort of thing happen, so let's sit down here and iron our differences. In the mean time, I am reverting the page to the version I last edited (though I have inserted the two new platform planks you have included, and thanks for that research). I would recommend you leave it that way for now and we work off that after discussions on this talk page. ALC Washington 18:13, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I do not want to include speculation any more than the next person, and have removed such talk from other pages before regarding projected what-if scenarios after elections. However, the relevance here is not his sexuality per se, which personally I could give a damn about, but that there even is an issue. Everyone I have ever met who knows who Charlie Crist is has heard this rumour, and it seems valuable to me to know who is making that accusation. It would be like writing an article about Truman and the Democratic party in the Cold War era without mentioning Senator McCarthy: The President was not in league with the Communists but the accusation was a big issue at the time, much as Max Cleland was painted as being unpatriotic in his election he lost to Senator Chambliss. I think it does a real disservice to anyone interested in the race to not mention the issue openly and point people in the right direction on who is making the accusations, so that the reader can draw their own conclusions. As it stands now the article just says people are accusing him of being gay. I fail to see how removing evidence to the contrary and references adds to the article. As it is you are removing valuable content and replacing it with spelling errors and ideological attacks. Quberoot

Quereboot, you have failed to provide a response to my objections to your edits, except for the one regarding sexual prefernce, where you have misdirected the discussion away from the issue at hand. Your re-revert was unexplained, uncalled for, and goes against Wikipedia policy. I have been swamped with work the last three days and unable to respond to your specific objections (scanty as they may be). Once I am free today or tomorrow, however, I plan to do so. In the mean time, it would behoove you to provide specific reasons that my objections as stated above are invalid in your eyes. This would help us iron out differences of opinion in how the page should be constructed. ALC Washington 12:37, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

To allow Crist's detractors to repeatedly deface his page without allowing people to post who is making the accusations is, to me, absurd. I would think someone doing research on Crist would like to know who it is that is making the accusation rather than allowing Wikipedia to be used as someone's own personal rumour mill. My stance is still that we should present all of the facts and let people make their own decisions. For instance, several reputable papers in Florida are reporting that Crist now has a steady significant other and have even published her name. We could head off ugly allegations at the pass by posting this information, but apparently some users would rather not do that for their own reasons. Quberoot 20 March 2006

This is not too hard to see, Quberoot (or 172). You are misrepresenting the state of the page before your edits. No one has "accused" Crist of being homosexual (certainly not Lee DeCesare), so it would be impossible to name an "accuser." There has, however, been media speculation about his sexuality. Because several analysts in the media have predicted that the race will have a focus on "family values," this speculation has become relevant to the election. It is worth about a sentence in this article. We are not here, however, to offer potential voters a point-counterpoint on whetehr or not Crist is gay, as it hardly merits that much space in this article. It is enough to say that there has been speculation, and Crist has denied it repeatedly.
I would remind you that Wikipedia is not meant to be a store of all information in the world, nor is it meant to be a candidates guide for potential Florida voters. It is meant to be a store of encyclopedic information. The article on Charlie Crist is intended to be an article on the man, not the candidate. His candidacy is certainly an important part of his life, but it should not be the exclusive focus of the article (this is why, for example, I think his gubernatorial platform is relevant but his AG platform from 2002 would not be). What also is not relevant, however, is your summarizing every minor piece of news that cmes out about Crist in these coming months. Unless controversies develop into more than a minor dust-up, they do not belong in this article. All of your hard work and research is appreciated, but please keep it relevant.
I have been away for a few weeks and so unable to remedy these things, and will likely be away for a few more down the road. You can, of course, revert, if you like. But to do so would be a very perverse interpretation of Wikipedia policy. Better to discuss it here and we can iron something out that we can all agree on. ALC Washington 11:27, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Just wanted to express what a great job ALC Washington did on the last round of edits putting everyone's work together. The article is now concise, accurate, and balanced. User:Quberoot:Quberoot

Platform

It would be very beneficial in achieving balance between the Wikipedia entries of all candidates if we could add more platform positions for everyone in the race. Does anyone have more information on Crist's stances on various issues?Quberoot

Crist's abortion and health care stances are now public, and his public policy teams are up on his website. Fundraising is also a little more clear with the split among Bush's Rangers and Crist's excellent outreach to mid-level donators. I would like to see us get the same platform info up for all candidates so they can be compared, if anyone knows more about the other candidates than I do it would help. Quberoot

Anti-fraud Work

Would anyone with a telecommunications or law background be able to contribute a more in-depth analysis of Crist's work on preventing fraud in this area? It is mentioned in the article as it is today but it such a huge part of his public work it is a shame not to elaborate, or at least provide relevant links and citations. Quberoot

Nickname

Crist said he was dubbed "Chain Gang Charlie" during his days in the Florida Senate when he sponsored a successful bill that required prisoners to serve at least 85 percent of their sentences. The legislation included an amendment to revive chain gangs, which Crist said he noticed as a child and later thought would serve as a visual deterrent to others. The idea passed. (St. Petersburg Times)

So was he really 'best known' for the chain gang thing, or just for generally being tough on convicted criminals? That is, is "chain gang Charlie" well-deserved, in that he vigorously advocates chain gangs as a punishment or deterrent? Or is it an epithet opponents tried to hang on him because of their advocacy about chain gangs, i.e., an opposition to anything that might make convicts feel uncomfortable, inconvenienced, or embarassed (i.e., "punished")? --Uncle Ed 13:33, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Passive criticism

Cut from article:

Crist's qualifications to be attorney general were challenged during the 2002 election, when it was revealed that he had failed the state bar exam three times before passing. [1] The attorney general, often described as the state's "top lawyer," is required by the state constitution to have passed the bar.

Shouldn't we say WHO challenged his qualifications? And what's this about "it was revealed"? Had he been hiding his 3 failures or lying about it? The text I cut makes it sound like he had been masquerading as a competent lawyer when (surprise!) we all found out that he really was a failure. A hasty read might even mislead you into thinking that, required to have passed the bar (but revealed to have failed it), he cheated and defrauded the voters!

If that's a POV someone wants described in the article fine, but please source it. I bet this point of view comes from one of his opponents. Anyone got time to google it? --Uncle Ed 13:39, 4 May 2006 (UTC)