Talk:Charles Durning

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[edit] Everwood on the WB / Medical Problems?

I was watching Everwood this evening, and I saw Mr. Durning on it. He looks VERY different than he did since O Brother, Where Art Thou?...has he had some sort of stroke or heart attack or some kind of palsy that's affected his speech? --65.190.163.190 02:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WWII

I have known of Charles Durning as an accomplished actor for many years. However, I just recently found out about his heroism during WWII which included being in the first wave on Omaha Beach at Normandy, being one of the few survivors of the Malmedy Massacre and being awarded the Silver Star and three Purple Hearts. Mr. Durning, my gratitude and utmost respect go out to you.

I wish we had a good source for his WWII exploits: unit, rank, etc. Beanbatch 21:00, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Indeed. How likely is it for a rifleman in the 1st Infantry Division on Omaha Beach to later be reassigned to an artillery oberservation battalion (which comprised the victims of the Malmedy massacre)?Michael Dorosh 06:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Very. This is a well known fact, written about several books including one written by the Naval Institute Press reviewed here. Try doing a google if you don't believe me. --rogerd 00:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Nothing in that link you provided shows any evidence whatsoever that the claims made are true. Do you have a copy of the book? I'd be interested in knowing what cites/footnotes the author provides. As for your comment "very", I have a hard time believing you understood the implication of the question. I would suggest that the odds of a rifleman in the 1st Infanty Division surviving Omaha Beach and "just missing" the Malmedy Massacre are extremely slim. I stand to be corrected by actual documentary evidence.Michael Dorosh 01:12, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
My father also served in WWII. Can I point you to a URL that documents what units and when he served with each? No. How do I know he wasn't lying? Because he told me and I believed him. Durning has talked about all of this in interviews that I have seen. I believe him. I am sure that if you search the internet or your local public library enough, you will find what you are looking for. I don't need to. --rogerd 20:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
In order for you to post it on wikipedia, um, yes, you do need to. See Brian Dennehy. Michael Dorosh 20:32, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
I didn't put it there. It was there before I first saw this article. Go ahead and remove the material about his WWII service if you feel you must dishonor an American hero. There is a heck of a lot of other unreferenced material on wikipedia, most of it a lot more questionable than this, so it sounds like you have a lot of work to do. --rogerd 14:52, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be wiser just for you to go ahead and post a source for the material? Be careful with that "hero" word - Dennehy claimed to be one, too. I'll be delighted to see that the claims are true - and fully referenced. Looking forward to your contributions.Michael Dorosh 15:00, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I added some other references. I am sure they won't be good enough for you either. Sorry to disappoint you, but not all Americans are liars and cheats. Also, what exactly is your issue with his Broadway credits? That can be easily verified on IBDB.com or TonyAwards.com. --rogerd 21:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Please assume good faith and use civility. I read the references and they state specifically he was not in the infantry on D-Day, but was already in the artillery. The Infantry Regiment he was drafted into was not part of the 1st Division. I've changed the article accordingly. Good work finding sources.
So one of the sources specifically states "The recipient of three Purple Hearts and a Silver Star, Durning was a U.S Army Ranger during WWII". Was this also true? Seems not to be confirmed by the other sources. Hmm, as well, none of the units actually listed for him seem to have been components of the U.S. 1st Infantry Division - "3d Army Support Troops" indicate just that - Army troops. I can believe that he landed on Omaha Beach but have to believe he was not among the "first troops to land" on D-Day itself - though it is possible as an artilleryman he came ashore on June 6, making him one of the first troops to land in the overall Battle of Normandy.
Another "source" states he was a combat engineer on D-Day. A google search of Malmedy and Durning shows that almost every reference to Durning and his link to the massacre is based on this very wikipedia article. Frightening. I just pulled out my copy of MALMEDY MASSACRE by Richard Gallagher (1964) and didn't see his name, but there is no definitive list of survivors in the book and few victims or survivors are actually mentioned by name in any event. Would still like to see a creditable source cited for his involvement there. There is apparently a book called "Stars in Khaki: Movie Actors in the Army and Air Services" that seems to have the goods on this, but I don't have access to a copy. I've written an email to Scott Baron, the writer of the GIJobs article, to ask about the sources he consulted. It seems on the face of it that he too may have used wikipedia as a source, based on the incorrect statement he made about James Doohan being in the RCAF - a "fact" that was part of the wikipedia article for many months until I corrected it recently. Michael Dorosh 02:03, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] PTSD

I've removed this from the article after his admission of nightmares: "which is common among veterans suffering from post-traumatic stress"

Unless the person that added this is a medical doctor with Mr. Durning under his care (and has consent to post it to the internet!) I don't see this as accurate or fair. Nightmares are indeed an indicator of PTSD, but not everyone who has experienced stress or has nightmares is suffering from a "disorder". Unless there is a source that indicates Mr. Durning has a disorder, suggesting he has one simply because he admits to nightmares is false and misleading. Michael Dorosh 14:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Accusations of lying about his record

An editor made this edit that accuses Durning of exaggerating his military record. This record will need to be linked on this talk page so that other editors can verify this before we can allow this kind of character assassination. The charge of exaggerating one's military record is a very serious one (see Jeremy Michael Boorda), and needs to be backed up by evidence. --rogerd 12:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello, rogerd, I just read your note at User talk:Calgarytanks, and your exchange with Kaspazes -- after having read all of the other discussion on this issue -- and I can't help wondering if User:Calgarytanks might be the same person as Michael Dorosh, who says on his user page that he served in the Calgary Highlanders, and whom you had a major argument with a few months back re the same basic issues.
Although the article doesn't actually accuse Durning himself of making false claims, I think a lot of people would read it that way -- so I tend to share your stated concerns on that issue. Also, if service records aren't available online where anybody can verify their contents, how are they regarded in terms of being Original Research? This seems a bit murky to me.
I sure as hell don't know what the real facts are re Durning's military history, but I don't think it makes a lot of sense to argue it out in the text of the article. There has got to be a better way to handle this -- perhaps by stating those facts which are not in dispute, and then stating that other details are unclear due to contradictory accounts (possibly including a very brief summary).
Cgingold 14:12, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I will put an {{NPOV}} template at the top of the page. I do belive that the edit should stand, however. I have put some editing only text above the section warning editors not to edit that area. Does anyone think that we should request the page to be locked? Kaspazes talk 13:00, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

You have provided no evidence about you contentions, just vague references to his service record and World Book Encyclopedia that you haven't shared with us on this page. The information about Durning being at Normandy and Malmedy is referenced by multiple sources. Durning's record has been well known for 60 years, and now your original research, that you won't show us proves him to be a liar? I don't think so. --rogerd 14:30, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] new assertions

User:Monkeyzpop has made an edit to this article about some statement that Burt Reynolds supposedly made on a TV show, that he is disputing. There is no reference to the Reynolds quote, so it is not really relevant to the article. Just because someone else makes a statement about the subject of this article, doesn't mean that it deserves mention here. Also, the alleged false statement was the Durning was the 2nd most decorated soldier of WWII, which Monkeyzpop disputes. If such a trivial thing deserves mention (which IMO it doesn't), then you would need to provide a reference that someone else is the 2nd most decorated soldier of WWII. But then again, Reynolds is hardly an authority on military history, so what he says about Charles Durning's war record is very trivial, even if the editor could find a reference. --rogerd (talk) 02:58, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

At the 2008 Screen Actors Guild Awards, watched by some 35,000,000 people, Burt Reynolds broadcast to the world that Charles Durning, a decorated soldier (1 Silver Star and 3 Purple Hearts), was actually the "second most decorated soldier of World War II." Since that time, the internet has been rife with discussions about whether that was true. Many of those discussions have mentioned Durning's Wikipedia article, saying that they searched there for an answer but found nothing one way or the other. It seems to me that something broadcast in error to millions of people and THEN argued about on many websites should well have the truth told about it on the appropriate Wikipedia page, rather than have Wikipedia be just one more place people CAN'T find the answer. I do not know how to cite a reliable source that Durning was NOT the second most decorated soldier of World War II, because there ARE no sources or lists of people who are NOT the second most decorated soldier. No one seems to really know who the second most decorated soldier was, and therefore no citation of the actual person can be made. But the one undisputed fact is that Durning won 1 Silver Star and 3 Purple Hearts, which is not remotely enough decorations to make him the "second most decorated." I think Durning was a hero and deserves to be recognized as such. But not by allowing untruths to stand. Burt Reynolds made a mistake, but he made it to millions of people, many of whom are now trying to learn the truth. Wikipedia ought to be a place they can learn it. A Google search of "Charles Durning" "most decorated" will turn up many conversations among people who'd like to know if Reynolds spoke the truth. A number of those conversations state that Wikipedia was no help. I'm trying to provide that help. Monkeyzpop (talk) 06:12, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure what "most decorated" means. If soldier A got 3 Bronze Stars and soldier B got a Silver Star and a Purple Heart and soldier C got a Medal of Honor, that would mean the A had three decorations, B had two and C had one. Would that mean that A is "more decorated" than B or C? I don't think so. I don't think there is an established standard for determining what medals make a serviceman "more decorated" than another. It is often said that Audie Murphy was the most decorated serviceman of WWII, which can probably be established regardless of the standard, but it gets tricky after that. --rogerd (talk) 13:45, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I think you make an excellent point. I'm supposing that Audie Murphy had more different combat decorations than any other soldier (the 3 Bronze Stars you mention as example would be 3 decorations), but it's very hard to sort out after that. A soldier might well get a handful of theatre and campaign ribbons simply by being transferred a lot during the war, but that hardly makes him "more decorated" than someone who "only" got the Silver Star. There seems to be this need in human nature to separate things in a best-next best-third best sort of way, but I think it's a short trip to disservice down that path. There also seems to be a need to pump up the war record of celebrities as if to shore up their "specialness." Hence Burt Reynolds calling Durning the "second most decorated soldier" when he could have made quite the legitimate point by saying Durning won a Silver Star and 3 Purple Hearts. The debate over whether Reynolds inadvertently inflated Durning's record diminishes the importance of the actual facts. As a combat veteran myself, I wouldn't want people arguing over whether I was second, third, or 345th most decorated. That, it seems to me, would miss the point. Monkeyzpop (talk) 14:33, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Legion of Honor

Charles Durning was presented with the French Legion of Honor on April 22, 2008 (last week). The ceremony took place in Los Angeles and the presenter was Philippe Larrieu, Consul General of France. Both his war record and his acting career were mentioned. 68.124.153.86 (talk) 00:34, 30 April 2008 (UTC) Gerard