Talk:Charles C. Soludo

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Contents 1 Scammer 2 Rhodes scholar?? 3 419 info 4 May 2008

[edit] Scammer

This is a fake profile relate to a scam letter. 203.110.243.21 (talk) 16:46, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rhodes scholar??

Nigerian Rhodes scholars? I don't think so!! Pdfpdf 15:30, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

See this footnote at Notable Rhodes Scholars. Picaroon (t)

Yes. I wrote that footnote. I have now clarified it:

Nigeria, Malta and Singapore are not (currently) one of the 14 regions that nominate their citizens/residents as Rhodes Scholars; this person's nomination can only have arisen due to being a citizen/resident of one of the 14 regions, or a region which was part of the scheme at the time of their nomination. It is not clear if, or when, these countries were ever eligible to nominate Rhodes Scholars. If they were not, then this person's nomination was due to citizenship/residence and study in some other country.

I can find no evidence that:

• Nigeria was ever eligible to nominate Rhodes Scholars.
• Soludo is/was a citizen or resident of any country other than Nigeria.
• Soludo ever studied at any University in a geographic region that is/was eligible to nominate Rhodes Scholars at the time he studied there, and that he was a citizen/resident of that country at that time.

The only evidence I can find that he was awarded a Rhodes Scholarship is his biography page, and copies of it.
I can find no independent reliable source(s) to confirm the claim.
Therefore, it is highly unlikely that he was awarded a Rhodes Scholarship.

Also, I can find no independent reliable source(s) to confirm the claims of education at other institutions.

If you can find an independent reliable source that confirms any of these claims, I would be very greatful if you could bring it to my attention. Very greatful. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 01:30, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

A good point. I've removed the info on Rhodes scholarship unless we can find a better source than the CBN website that he was part of the program. Picaroon (t) 01:35, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

An April 2004 Thisday article, archived here, says: "Between January 1991 and July 1992, Soludo carried out several post-doctoral training works in various internationally acclaimed institutions including the Brooking Institute in the US, Rhodes research scholar at University of Oxford, University of Warwick, UK, University of Cambridge, among others." Another Thisday article, from December of that year, archived here, says "He was a Rhodes research scholar at Oxford". So the question is, is a "Rhodes research scholar" the same as a "Rhodes Scholar"? Picaroon (t) 01:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Well done in finding those references!
I wonder what "post-doctoral training" means? "Post-doctoral research" is a term I'm more familiar with. Perhaps it's just a terminology thing and they're two different names for the same thing? Whatever the case, eighteen months is a short period to pack in four of them; he must have been very busy! (And I don't see how he would have had the time to fit in "among others" too! But I digress ... )

On the Rhodes Scholar issue, the Rhodes Scholarship is a post-graduate award funding two years study at Oxford, resulting in a bachelor's or master's degree. If the student wishes to pursue a doctorate, (D.Phil, not Ph.D.), the student can apply during the second year, and the scholarship can be extended to a third year (subject to terms & conditions). These time-frames are inconsistent with the above statements/claims, and as there's no claim that Soludo has an Oxford degree, nor any claim that he received post-graduate training there, I'd say we can pretty safely conclude that his time at Oxford was post-doctoral research, and hence, that we was not a Rhodes Scholar. (BTW: In response to: So the question is, is a "Rhodes research scholar" the same as a "Rhodes Scholar"?, the answer is: No.)

So, I think it's "case closed" on the "Rhodes Scholar" issue, and thank you very much for your help in resolving it. Pdfpdf (talk) 07:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 419 info

Fair enough, Pdfpdf, the info is not "completely" irrelevant; "largely" irrelevant good? As Soludo has had nothing to do with these scams, I don't think it would be acceptable to connect him to them in this article without reliable sources identifying this connection as significant in some way - just citing him as one of the hundreds of Nigerians who have had their names used could bring up some concerns of implying guilt by association, and would be questionable from a Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons standpoint. Furthermore, we don't even have a reliable source - an amateur scambaiter's website doesn't strike me as meeting Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Picaroon (t) 23:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

You make an interesting argument.

Yes, "Soludo has had nothing to do with these scams", but there is absolutely no doubt, and gigabytes (possibly terabytes) of evidence that, as I said, "Soludo's name and position are frequently quoted by 419 scammers in their attempts to add credibility to their fraudulent activities."

Also, he's not just "one of the hundreds of Nigerians who have had their names used". It's his position, rather than his name, that they are making use of.

Unfortunately, he is much more infamous for being quoted in 419 scam "bait", than he is famous for the achievements that put him in his high profile position.

Hence, I don't think we can have a WP page about him that doesn't make some reference to this infamous use of his name and position.

I felt that "Soludo's name and position are frequently quoted by 419 scammers in their attempts to add credibility to their fraudulent activities." was NPOV. However, I agree that it doesn't address the "guilt-by-association" issue sufficiently well enough. I'll think about how to re-write it to capture that aspect too. Any suggestions would be welcomed!!

Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 02:11, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

(P.S. Yes, I agree that the source somebody-else-put-there can hardly be classed as "reliable", but there are hundreds of other sources, some of which can be classed as reliable. At the moment, the "source" issue is a red herring which can be resolved when we have decided how to resolve the way to mention the 419 scam issue.) Pdfpdf (talk) 02:11, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

If we can find a reliable source or two covering the frequent use of his name and job in 419 emails, would the following be good: "Soludo's name and position have frequently been adopted by con artists for use in advance-fee fraud." A source noting frequency is key, to distinguish him from others whose names have been used less often; such uses probably aren't notable, although you make the point that this use could be. Picaroon (t) 20:02, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes. How about: "Soludo's name and position are frequently used by con artists in their attempts to add credibility to their advance-fee fraud activities, (also known as 419 scams.)"? I think it's important to emphasise why these people are using Charles' name, (rather than anyone else's name), and also emphasise that these fraud attempts are still active, and still frequent.

If you reply "yes", I'll go off and find some relevant references. Pdfpdf (talk) 14:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

See urgentmessage.org for some numbers. As the head of the CBN his name is being abused very often. 77.185.6.138 (talk) 20:01, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the last comma is needed, and I think the period goes outside the parentheses. Otherwise, sounds pretty good to me. Sorry to take so long to respond. Picaroon (t) 22:08, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Re punctuation: Agreed. Glad you like it, and glad you replied. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 00:52, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] May 2008

Dear 41.211.238.36, Thank you for your recent contributions, but in documenting such situations, one must chose one's words very carefully. My comments on my most recent edits follow:

• "beleaguered" - You can't just place unexplained adjectives in the middle of factual text. As a minimum, you need to either provide a supporting reference, or supply an explanation. You have done neither. Until you do, no matter how accurate it might be, it is simply opinion.
• "reported as" - What's your point here? The sources seem reliable. Are you suggesting that they are not? If so, be more direct - say they are not reliable, and provide supporting evidence.
• The last paragraph before the "Publications" section is slowly improving, but it is still messy. Using words like "surreptitiously" (no matter how accurate) is accusatory, and needs supporting evidence. Again, you haven't supplied any. And you've made lots of other vague unsupported statements too. You must choose your words more carefully, you must be unambiguous, and you must supply supporting evidence.

Best wishes, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)