Talk:Cessationism

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Assessment comments The following comments were left by the assessors: (edit · refresh) I thought this was a pretty well written article. The person writing may be partial to pentecostalism but, that does not prevent an individual from explaining the views of cessationalism. I think that one of the best books for researching this subject is called "Are Miraculous Gifts for Today" Edited by Grudem. This book contains an overview of the four main views and gives one respected scholar in each view the chance to explain their view and then gives each of the other three authors the chance to respond.

Contents 1 Bibliography 2 Clean-up tag 3 Neutrality 4 Miracles is not the same issue 5 The Puritans meant something different by the word Prophesying 6 This Article needs an opposing view section 7 Weasel words 8 Removed Cessationism Today 9 Moving forward 10 Article Needs Section on Cessation's definition of the term Miracles 11 The word 'remain', in 1 Cor 13:13, only makes sense if something has ceased.

[edit] Bibliography

Removed Power Religion from the bibliography. It is a critique of the modern charismatic movement rather than an argument for cessationism, per se. DA Carson is certainly a continuationist (see Showing the Spirit) and I think Packer and Boice have similar views. David L Rattigan 19:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clean-up tag

This article has some very good content, but its arrangement is rather haphazard, wordy, and lacking in citations. David L Rattigan 13:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality

The article is informative but clearly shows that the author (of this article) believes in charismata in some form. The Critiques section mentions each critique but imediately dispells them, i.e. "Numerous other passages clearly teach that all spiritual gifts will continue to the Second Coming of Christ" This is the authors belief, not a cited rebuttle of the Charismatic movement. In general, the whole section suffers from the same problem and needs to be written in accordance with the NPOV policy. --Gregoryg72 11:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll be happy to work on this article. Gregoryg72, if you haven't already, please consider joining the Charismatic project (see link at top). David L Rattigan 16:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Charismatic penticostalism has 1 billion plus adherents? What nonsense is this? Thanatosimii 05:34, 5 July 2006 (UTC) For more reliable figures, see Johnstone, P.J. & Mandryk, J. "Operation World" Paternoster Press (2001) P.J. Baker 80.175.135.49 20:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't see a reference in the article to 1 billion plus adherents, so I'm not sure what the comment above is referencing. Perhaps, it was edited out of the article. I don't think the size of such adherents needs to be included, but for the purposes of these notes, Pew Research did extensive research on this in 2006. Their results found more than 500 million members of Pentecostal and charismatic groups worldwide. http://www.pewforum.org/surveys/pentecostal/ http://www.zenit.org/article-17978?l=english

I agree with the NPOV concerns. This article is highly problematic and this is reflected in the bibliography. Vassyana 23:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I also agree with the NPOV concerns. The Critiques of Continuationism reads like the Critiques of Cessationism. The article fails to mention that the great danger of continuationism is that it tends to under emphasise the importance of studying the Bible. Sprititual maturity, in my opinion, primarily comes from studying, memorizing and applying the Bible. Most people dont have the time for this, hence the popularity of the charismatic movement and over emphasis on sign gifts. The end days of course is characterised by apostasy as mentioned in Thessalonians. The section called "The word 'remain', in 1 Cor 13:13, only makes sense if something has ceased" was deleted, it had some very valid points. This indicates to me that the cessationist entry is primarily controlled by continuationists. --Another berean (talk) 23:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Miracles is not the same issue

The main page includes:

According to a Harris poll, 89% of Americans affirm that "Even today God performs miracles by his power."

This is not the same issue as the cessation of the extraordinary gifts listed in the NT. Even many cessationists do not deny that God can today work miracles, though others would classify such events as examples of extraordinary divine providence. The issue in cessationism is whether men and women of today have gifts that enable them to work miracles, such as healing, etc. DFH 09:24, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• • This is hair-splitting. Warfield's definitive work of cessationism had a great deal of trouble articulating just what a "miracle" is. It seems to have been circular and might be expressed as: "A miracle is a remarkable event of divine proof which can rationally be identified that establishes, and therefore adds, new doctrine to the New Testament." Since no new chapters to the book of Jude are being added these days, it perforce follows that there can be no "miracles." Absurd as it is, this seems to be Warfield's position. See Ruthven, On the Cessation of the Charismata, 44-77.

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This claim doesn't even LOOK credible. 89 percent? Really? I vote for this line to be deleted unless the citation can be provided.

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Wrong poll cited. It's The Harris Poll® #11, February 26, 2003

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=359

The Religious and Other Beliefs of Americans 2003 Many people believe in miracles (89%), the devil (68%), hell (69%), ghosts (51%), astrology (31%) and reincarnation (27%)

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http://jeksite.org/psi/motivation.htm The most widely held beliefs about paranormal phenomena involve supernatural religious interpretations and are not included in these scales. In U.S. national surveys, 89% of respondents strongly or somewhat agreed that "there is a God who watches over you and answers your prayers" (Barna, 1991) and 82% agreed that "even today, miracles are performed by the power of God" (Gallup & Castelli, 1989). Measures that do not capture the most widely held beliefs may be of limited value in understanding the characteristics of paranormal beliefs.

we could leave it in if it was followed by the line that 89% of americans are retards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.137.212.160 (talk) 02:21, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Puritans meant something different by the word Prophesying

The Puritans wrote extensively on all manner of subjects relating to the Christian faith, including some topics that touch on the modern debate about cessationism. It is important however to note that they often used the word Prophesying where today we would normally use the word Preaching. DFH 09:41, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Could you cite some sources for the above claim? Thanks--66.215.152.125 00:49, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

william perkins, the art of prophesying. it is, as dfh says, about preaching. perkins considers prophesying to be preaching which is intelligent, faithful, impassioned, and Spirit-led. for a bit of a non-sequitur, perkins use of the word prophesy is interesting to the cessationism debate because it highlights that Reformed language has not always been as sterile and scientific as it tends to be in our post-enlightenment time, when a word like prophesying can only mean one thing, i.e. recording Scripture. Chadbald (talk) 02:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This Article needs an opposing view section

There is no section for the opposing views in the article.

I agree. Also, there needs to be some reference to how Isaiah said that this would happen as a sign to the Jews for only a short time. Will reference later.

[edit] Weasel words

The sentence that includes "generally perceived to be in retreat" looks like weasel words to me. Perceived by whom? DFH 19:17, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed Cessationism Today

Preserved text:

Cessationism, however, is a doctrine that is generally perceived to be in retreat even among conservative and Evangelical Christians. Among theologians more to the left, cessationism is a non-issue. According to a Harris poll (#11, Feb. 2003), 89% of Americans affirm the reality of modern miracles. The explosive growth of charismatic Pentecostalism (those who believe and practice the so-called "extra-ordinary" or "miraculous" spiritual gifts), approaching one billion adherents world-wide, has largely undercut the appeal of cessationism.

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I have been able to find no evidence that cessationism is "in retreat", especially among conservatives and Evangelicals. (Their continuing criticisms against continuationism and continuing revelation among the LDS, Pentecostals and others seems to contradict this assertion.) Belief in miracles is an improper measure. Do these people believe the miracles come from G-d? Do they believe in continuing revelation? Do these people believe they are gifts of the Holy Spirit? These are the kinds of questions that need to be asked to narrow the field of respondants to those who actually believe a contrary viewpoint. Additionally, the Pentecostalism article clearly shows the adherents figure to be overinflated by at least a factor of six. Overall, this is a Charismatic POV paragraph with highly inaccurate information and no sourcing except for a poll that is not even applicable due to the overly broad nature of the question. So, I removed it. Vassyana 23:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

If "charismatic-Pentecostalism" refers to a larger movement than classical Pentecostalism--including those who believe in continuing "miraculous" gifts of the Spirit--then the "approaching one billion adherents" is not out of line at all according to the latest data from the World Christian Encyclopedia (David Barrett, ed.). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.216.58.211 (talk) 19:40, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

In contradiction to the claims of "retreat", one of the external links (A look at cessationism from a non-cessationist POV) states:

"Most mainline Protestants, and nearly all Fundamentalists, are 'cessationists', whether they are fully aware of it or not."

Just pointing out the provided sources/links are not in harmony with the claims of the removed section.Vassyana 00:05, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moving forward

I'm not a cessationist, but I do understand the cessationist position, and am doing post-grad work on spiritual gifts, so have easy access to sources that can then be cited properly. As it stands, this article really is both poorly written and biased. I'd really like to tidy it up and present it in a way that is fair to cessationists, and not a weak charismatic critique of cessationism. To do so would require an extensive rewrite. Given the debate on these pages, what is the best way of doing that? Markbarnes 18:09, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I generally support the cessationist position for the following reasons :- 1. Groups deemed to be non Christian, such as the Mormons, believe they also have the sign gifts. A lot of self and group deception is taking place. 2. The gifts are over-emphasised, with the Bible often taking secondary importance. In a world where many people have little to no free time, it is easier to demonstrate ones spirituality by the displaying of sign gifts. Personally I prefer keeping my feet on the ground and spending time with the Bible. 3. From personal observation, if I can make a generalisation without being seen to be offensive, I find cessationalists have holier lifestyles than their charismatic counterparts. 4. From personal observation, having spent a number of years in a Charismatic church, no spectacular healing was ever observed. It was more a case of people with ailments such as bad backs being cured. Take a look at the Benny Hinn section for faking of miracles.

Having said all the above, Smith Wigglesworth knew his Bible, lived a holy life and had spectacular sign gifts.

Personally though, I think it is wiser to hold a cessationist position due to the reasons stated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Another berean (talk • contribs) 12:12, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article Needs Section on Cessation's definition of the term Miracles

As with many religious discussions, part of the problem is that positions which disagree with each other, frequently define the term Miracles differently. Some would use the term 'Miracles" to refer to any supernatural act. Others would state that some supernatural acts fall under the definition of the term while others do not.

For example, within my own belief system a miracle has to be 1. Humanly Observable 2. Significant (or indicative) and 3. Creates Wonder or Amazement. Therefore, it would be argued that God intervened in Hannah's conception of Samuel and also in the Jews deliverance from Haman but since no humans observed what God did to make these events occur, these supernatural acts can not be described as a miracle.

My own belief system is Cessationist, but those of us who believe this way still believe that God acts in ways that are similar to the two examples which I cited in the previous paragraph.

Other Cessationists may disagree with this viewpoint. My knowledge of the entire spectrum of cessationist views is very limited.

Therefore, I propose a section in which as many diverse Cessationist definitions of the term "miracle" as can be compiled be listed and explained.

--Shewmaker 21:23, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed that definition of miracle is key, but even more so is the purpose of miracle. It is my conviction that the scriptures consistently point to Scripture as authenticating those who in fact speak for God (cf. Heb 2:3-4), i.e. prophets. They also are intended to serve as eschatalogical signs, pointers to the intrusion of the kingdom of God. These two features are really one, since the appearance of a prophet is itself an eschatological event. As the purposes of God are unfolded in history, He sends his messengers and authenticates their ministry with miracles. While miracles do in fact help individuals, their primary purpose is to be signs pointing to the future fulfilment of the kingdom. This is clear because those who rise from the dead, like Lazarus, still die eventually. Those who are healed still die eventually. But the powers of the kingdom are demonstrated so that we may see our hope of final fulfilment when all God's enemies will be destroyed, epitomized by the destruction of Satan and death itself. This kind of background structure, more so than proof-texting, is essential to understand the cessationist position. The Bible is full of examples of counterfeit miracle workers whose goal is to deceive the saints. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.214.238 (talk) 17:39, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The word 'remain', in 1 Cor 13:13, only makes sense if something has ceased.

I removed this section from the article. See Wikipedia:NPOV to get an idea how to write articles with a neutral point of view. This is an encyclopedia, not a Sunday School lesson. I like to saw logs! (talk) 19:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I removed essentially the same section a second time because this is all original research, not a NPOV, from the author of a website who is trying to publish on Wikipedia. I only moved it here to indicate that it wasn't perhaps complete trash, but it does not fit into any of the goals of an encyclopedia. The below views are not sourced and cited, they are from the original author: his opinion, his teaching, his ideas, his views, his Sunday School lesson, etc. I like to saw logs! (talk) 10:53, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

The word 'remain', in 1 Cor 13:13, implies that something has been removed and 1 Cor 13:8 tells us that tongues, prophecy and knowledge are the things which will cease or fade away. 1 Cor 13:13 says that faith, hope and love will still remain after these items are gone. So clearly there is a time when the three items of 1 Cor 13:8 disappear and after that time faith, hope and love continue on. The word 'remain' would make no grammatical sense unless something else did not remain.

2 Cor 5:7 says, “We live by faith, not by sight.” Heb 11:1 says, “faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see” and “hope that is seen is no hope at all” (Rom 8:24). So when we see Jesus, and are made perfect, our faith and hope will be fulfilled and then only love will remain. Faith is one of the gifts (1 Cor 12:9) and, like the other gifts, it will not continue into eternity. From this it can be seen that the timing for the cessation of tongues, prophecy and knowledge is separate from the time of Jesus' return or our perfection. Tongues, prophecy and knowledge were singled out to disappear while faith and hope remain until Jesus returns. It is not possible for the three gifts of v.8 to remain along with our faith and hope. Why? Because that would be saying that the things to cease will remain until the things that remain cease. (All other gifts must still be with us as there is no mention of them ceasing).

The term 'that which is perfect' (and verses 9-10 overall) clearly fits the Bible because:

1) It is a genderless 'thing' through which a believer can mature in Christ.

2) The word 'perfect' can be translated 'complete' or 'finished', describing the Bible.

3) The Bible was 'in part' and its completion was dependant upon the two 'in part' gifts in these verses.

4) These two gifts were required, since Genesis, for the inspired writing of Scriptures.

5) The Bible completed God's revelation to man and did away with the need for the in-part, imperfect gifts.

6) Prophecy and knowledge must have ceased otherwise man could still add to the Word.