Talk:Cesare Borgia

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The article says he was born in 1476, but that he was "at the age of 33" when he died in 1507. As that's not possible, one of these two claims has to be wrong. --Delirium 08:49, Aug 25, 2003 (UTC)

I've read many Cesare Borgia books and none give the exact date of his birth. They even disagree on the year. Some say 1475, others 1476. --Cesare Borgia 03:41, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

The article says that he is Duke of Valencia, to my best information he was not but was Archbishop of Valencia and was made Duke of Valatinois by Luis XII king of France. -- lwatson

Yes, he was Duke of Valentinois. john 21:03, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I'm surprised there's nothing in the article regarding Borgia's presence in Machiavelli's THE PRINCE...

See the last para. --mav

Under fiction - it lists The Borgias by Dumas - link goes to a BBC film, and Dumas article refers only to essay on celebrated crimes - anyone know what's right? 212.58.43.101 18:49, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Image of Jesus

I removed this text from the article:

"The standard image of Jesus Christ seen around the world today is acutally Cesare Borgia."

This is at least an exaggeration, as (a) there is no one 'standard image' of Jesus, and (b) most of the similarities that exist between commonly-used pictures of Jesus also exist in pictures predating Borgia by centuries (e.g. the 550AD 'Christ Pantocrator' icon in St. Catherine's Monastery, Sinai). I've replaced it with a greatly reduced claim saying that it has been suggested that pictures of Jesus produced around that time might have been influenced by Borgia's looks, which might in turn have influenced images since; can anyone comment on whether even this is justified? TSP 16:16, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm not big on adding pop culture references of this sort, but Wu-tang affiliate Killah Priest mentions this fact [1], which means that some people (myself included) may be looking for an explination of how this story came to be. If anyone does know more, it would be interesting, if even to see some references. Smmurphy 23:42, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Your statment:

"It has been suggested that some pictures of Jesus Christ produced around Borgia's lifetime were based on Cesare Borgia, and that this in turn has influenced images of Jesus produced since that time."

was removed by another user but I for one believe that even if not true it should be addressed and as your statement says it has been suggested. More info on this would be greatly aprreciated

This claim is made in Volume One of Celebrated Crimes by Alexandre Dumas pere. However, Dumas was a notoriously uncritical researcher, and repeated any claim anyone had ever made, without doing any corroboration. Even Cesare's enemies agreed he was the best-looking man of his generation, so it wouldn't have been unreasonable to use him as a model for Jesus. But who knows. Fumblebruschi 15:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

If it has been suggested, even by an unreliable witness, it can be included as a claim by that witness; as this seems to be a well-known claim (as per the Killah Priest) reference, it seems to be worth including as a claim, even if it cannot be shown to have any truth to it. TSP (talk) 14:15, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I have heard this claim made about the self-portrait of Albrecht Durer, too (the one currently at the top of the wikipedia page for Durer). He and Borgia were of an age, though I don't ever remember hearing that they met. So I don't believe that this can be truly attributed to Borgia or to Durer. Dvallere (talk) 03:24, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Illegitimate

Cesare was 'thought' to be illegitimate however, Rodrigo Borgia acknowledged Cesare making him a legitimate heir and child as well as Cesare's siblings. Read your history books closer.

He was illegitimate, because his parents were not married at the time of his birth, and, in fact, never married. He may, I suppose, have been legitimized, but that is not the same thing at all. john k 07:23, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversial

The first paragraph states that Cesare was one of the most controversial people in history, but the article doesn't elaborate on this or explain what's controversial about him. Shouldn't it?

The section on Machievelli is flawed. Many scholars see Machievelli's praise of Borgia as satire.

The whole article is flawed. But quote your sources. In my opinion, quotations from Machiavelli would help. He called Borgia "the most perfect dissembler", which certainly sounds a little satirical. Perhaps cynical is a better word.
I believe Machiavelli genuinely approved of Borgia's methods; for two reasons: first, Cesare's interventions saved Florence, whose ambassador Machiavelli was; second, his removal of several tyrants in mid Italy benefited the people, which was the name of the game as far as Machiavelli was concerned. Before his work with Borgia, he had been an envoy to Forli, noted the regime's cruelty to the people there, and gave that as a reason for their preferring Borgia. Machiavelli saw Cesare's government of conquered territories as juster than that of the despots he had ousted. When Forli was later made forfeit to Julius II, the people at first stayed loyal to Cesare and refused to surrender.
You may tell from this that, like Machiavelli, I am a Borgia apologist. If there's any controversy about the Borgias, it concerns the accuracy of their reputation. (I don't see them as any worse than other dukes, popes, or noble nubiles of the time. Nor did Machiavelli.) qp10qp 19:14, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Saying that Machiavelli approved of Cesare Borgia shows a serious misunderstanding of Machiavelli. He was a strong supporter of republics, as can be seen in nearly all of his writings. He did not just disapprove of "tyrants," but of principalities in general. The Prince was not a book to be taken literally, it takes the opposite stance of nearly everything else he wrote. The book was a satire, and his praise for Cesare Borgia was about as genuine as Stephen Colbert's praise for Bush. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.178.110.53 (talk) 21:53, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] borgia as false christ

the "white" image of Jesus Christ you talk of is acually Ceasar Borgia ! and did you know that Borgia was a homosexual too?The point is, the white portrayal of Jesus is evidence of White supremacy because this was helped by the Roman Catholic Church who was by Michelangelo to create pictures of a "white saviour" in the back of Newly printed Bibles.....It's pure blasphemy to me... using white supremacy for making Jesus...In my belief,Jesus was black ! and there is proof ! and I'm caucasian,but its true, The lion of The Tribe of Judah is a Dark-skinned man! -: signed, The Brother Love

I'm not with you. qp10qp 19:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Brother Love, your ideas are as random as your spelling and punctuation. Sergivs-en 22:01, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. There wasn't even a concept of "white supremacy" at the time. The only people Renaissance Italians ever interacted with that weren't "white" were the Turks and other Muslims, and the difference between these cultures was drawn almost exclusively on religious lines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.193.160.132 (talk) 13:25, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nietzsche as Fiction!

"The Antichrist (1895) by F. Nietzsche" listed under fiction! Get it right.

TV series

There was a fine series on BBC TV called "The Borgias" in late 1981. Adolfo Celi played the Pope and Oliver Cotton, Cesare (Borgia).

-Meltingpot

62.137.150.216 10:14, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Borgia's death

In the article it states that he died at the siege of Viana. But in Machiavelli's The Prince it says he died of sickness. Could someone please provide some clarification? --PiMaster3 talk 23:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pope's recognizing their children

The article says that Alexander VI was the first pope to formally recognize his children as his own, however it was actually his predecessor, Innocent VIII, that first recognized his son as his own child rather than as a nephew, or nipoti in Italian (a title they used to cover any number of relations). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.193.160.132 (talk) 13:22, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bangles Song?

Always thought they were talking about Rudolph Valentino, the silent screen star, not Il Valentino. Anybody know for sure? Dvallere (talk) 03:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I do not know, but it seems so obvious that I commented out the claim. If anyone knows better, un-comment it. Queezbo (talk) 08:50, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish-Italian: good, though not exactly

Because nor Spain -and specially- neither Italy existed "properly" in those times. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.54.206.52 (talk) 11:23, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Death in 1507 or 1503?

I read a biography on Leonardo da Vinci which says Leonardo joined Cesare Borgia's household in 1502. It says that Cesare had a banquet at Imola, to which he invited a two mercenaries, one of them being Vitellozzo Vitelli. The book then says Cesare had these mercenaries assassinated. After this the book says Cesare died SHORTLY afterward and his court broke up. Since Cesare was dead, Leonardo da Vinci returned to Florence, were he was living before.

So, my question is, did Cesare die in 1503 or 4 whole years later in 1507?

72.9.8.88 (talk) 17:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC) Emily C.